Perendev style Magnetic Motor “Free Energy Generator”

This is something I looked at 3 or 4 years ago and then forgot about.  I used a CAD-style program that does element analysis and adds up magnetic force vectors.  If you look at some of the Perendev-motor”work” by others on the net, there is the issue of finding an arrangements of the magnets so that they don’t find a local minimum in the gradient field and get “stuck there”; the solutions usually involved using multiple “rotors” (3 typically) with a staggered configuration of the outer stator magnets.  I thought “why not stagger the magnets on a single rotor/stator pair in such a way that a single pair will never find a local minimum in a full rotation?”.  The software (Vizimag) can tell you the total force vector on each magnetic element in the diagram.

vortex

The idea is that the outer ring would be fixed on an annulus, called a stator, and the inner ring would be on another annulus but attached to a rotating axis, which could drive a generator.

Given that the outer ring would be fixed, I used Vizimag to determine the x & y force components on each of the inner magnets, did some simple trig and got the total tangential force on the rotor.   Because the tangential force from each magnet acts along the tangent of the inner annulus to which they’re attached, you can then just add them all up together and see if there is a non-zero tangential force in one rotary direction.  Using parameter values for real rare-Earth magnets, Vizimag said that the total net tangential force on the inner rotor was in the hundreds of foot (not inches) pounds of torque, for a 12″ rotor with 1″ x 3″ magnets of typical “rare-earth magnet” Gauss strength, which I just looked up the value for on the web from a retailer for these magnets.  The stator magnets are 1″ x 2″.

Some notes:

1) The total number of magnets is 33.  I figured things are hidden within the number 33.  

2) 15 magnets on the inside, 18 on the outside.  Spaced equally with #3 below setting the referent.

3) The first inner magnet, the horizontal one in the upper right quadrant, points at the outer rim of the inner annulus at 32 degrees.

4) Other designs I read about had directly-facing magnets on inner and outer annuli.  While this would cause repulsion in one direction if they were all perfectly lined up, it also automatically creates a local minimum, or balance, of force between the magnets, when they were angled “in between” each other. So the inner axis would just rotate into the intermediary position and then STOP, forcefully.  This required 2 or 3 more disks /annuli combo’s to be oriented at staggered positions relative to each other along a connecting drive axis so that when one disk wanted to stop rotating, the others would keep on pushing.

5)  Why not stagger the magnets on a single disk, then?  That’s what I tried.  The result being that as the inner rotor rotates relative to the stator, while the total tangential force in the CCW direction does vary in magnitude, it does not ever reverse direction.  If a few magnets start repulsing in the wrong direction, there are always more magnets of more total force pushing in the original direction.2

6) I emailed the guy who wrote the magnet force CAD software (Vizimag) and asked him if this set up actually would rotate.  He said I was seeing rounding error.  I don’t believe him.  This mesh-grid for the element analysis is the finest the program will allow.  I know how element analysis works.  If his software has a rounding problem in the 100′s of pounds of force when each magnet’s force is only a few pounds, it wouldn’t work at all.

7)  Therefore the best way to know is to do.  I haven’t done but someone should, just for fun.  Maybe it really wouldn’t work but hey, it is still fun garage tinkering.  Some high-strength plastic could be machined to fit the magnets into.  Etc etc, mechanical stuff.

8)  The rotating magnets would cause huge EMF.  It might be picked up by “authorities” as radio emission.  Therefore, do the test inside a Faraday cage or out in the country far away from everything and then quickly and leave.  The magnetic EMF might also have health issue concerns…so…might not want to get too near.  It might also look like an EMP weapon…or, be an EMP weapon.  It would create a ridiculously huge rotating vortex of magnetic energy flowing out along the axis when spinning at a few thousand RPM…

10)  If it actually does rotate, how long do the magnets last?  How permanent are permanent magnets?  How much energy does it take to create/produce a synthetic permanent magnetic vs. how much energy do you get out of this design hooked up to a generator?  For all the people wishing for a free energy machine…well…go ahead and try and let us know the results, hehe.  You can use this design freely.

force vectors

Force vector results from the element analysis. The stator magnets are supposed to be 1″ by 2″ in this diagram.  This is just one rotation angle which was calculated for the force vectors for display here – an entire rotation was actually calculated in increments of 1 degree and all angles resulted in a net tangential force similar to above…in the same direction.

The next two images are GIFs and should animate – if they’re not animating then click on them or open them in a new tab…they might take a minute or two to download all the frames.

This is a .gif and it should animate; if it isn't animating, click on it and see if it does on the new page.

This is a .gif and it should animate; if it isn’t animating, click on it and see if it does on the new page.  Might take a minute to load as it is a large file.

This is a .gif and it should animate; if it isn't animating, click on it and see if it does on the new page.

This is a .gif and it should animate; if it isn’t animating, click on it and see if it does on the new page.  Might take a minute to load as it is a large file.

Anyway, just posting this here because I had it lying around on my desktop for the last few years.  I honestly don’t know if it would work or not.  The magnetic force analysis says it would, but hey, models are hardly anything to go by!

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35 Responses to Perendev style Magnetic Motor “Free Energy Generator”

  1. tallbloke says:

    Fascinating. I wonder if the software is just completely borked. That’s a huge amount of power it is predicting. Is there any other software out there you could ‘replicate’ the ‘experiment’ with?

    [JP Reply: I don't know...last time I checked there wasn't.]

  2. tallbloke says:

    If anyone built one of these and found it did start spinning up, it would be a good idea to have something ready to apply a load to it to minimise the shrapnel risk! A water pump brought in on a centrifugal clutch would be a good option. The outlet hose might come in handy to cool the thing down. ;)

  3. Max™ says:

    Fun stuff, course, gotta remember the three rules: you can’t win, you can’t break even, and you can’t even stop playing.

  4. Yah so for over-unity, you would have to have the result that it takes less energy to make the magnets than you get out with the system powering an electrical generator. The problem is that people believe “permanent magnets” are actually “permanent”, but, they are not. At least, I highly doubt they are “as permanent” as required. Of course, if they were permanent or “permanent enough”, then sure, you could get energy forever or more than it took to create the magnet. Someone should do it and quantify it all to finally put it all to rest…or prove it if they dare. I’ve never seen any of these designs actually scientifically quantified and tested, and there’s likely good reasons for that. But hey, as I said, I haven’t seen it, so, here’s to seeing it!

  5. John in France says:

    This guy’s good fun: http://jnaudin.free.fr/index.htm Ever visit his site? Warning – just as big a fan o crappy ambience music as the above!

  6. Oh hey yah I remember that site…looks like in 3 years he never finished his overunity project…

  7. John in France says:

    I think he has been on it a bit more than 3 years.
    Nicely put Max. Shades of Chaucer’s Canon’s Yeoman’s Tale.

  8. Sparks says:

    With these machines, there is always a physical magnetic gate that mechanically holds X, therefor in order to move past X there will need to be extra force which is mechanical movement outside the machine to over come the gate, you could try it with springs but this will only delay the eventual halt of momentum.

  9. Loodt says:

    Hi Joseph,

    Have a look at the new type of electric motors developed by LeTourneau.
    :-
    Switched Reluctance (SR) Motors and Drives
    http://www.letourneautechnologies.com/mining/sr_motors_drives.php

    Rare-earth magnets are used extensively in the modern scale electric aeroplanes. You may know that China, with the one-child policy, has a model aeroplane (and all toys for that matter) boom, a bigger market than the USA, with parents and grandparents indulging their grand children.

    The rotor is fitted with rare-earth magnets and the stator uses IC switched electro magnets.

    The odd v even alignments of magnets on the stator and rotor is at the heart of these motors.

  10. Oh wow interesting. Thanks for that info Loodt.

  11. johnmarshall says:

    Permanent magnets do ”run down” eventually and with use the power drops quicker. The opposing force in these ingenious ”motors” counters the magnetism in the bar magnets so reducing their power.
    You can’t get owt for nowt. Good try though.

  12. Jude says:

    Harnessing Radiant Energy Could Be the Answer To Our Dwindling Energy Sources

    From all of Tesla’s patents for many of his inventions, none had greater potential to benefit everyone on earth than his discovery regarding Radiant
    Energy which is the energy found in electromagnetic waves.

    Not until recently was the potential of this discovery of
    Radiant Energy fully exploited to be able to practically use this radiant energy to produce free energy & electricity for the use in
    any household.

    See a working model of Tesla’s free energy device in action producing electricity…

  13. Spiril1 says:

    While having access to a laser cutter, I’ve decided to construct a working model out of your description.
    Only got a few questions: How did you figure out that 33 was the right number of magnets?
    And how about the angle 32?

  14. Hi Spiril1.

    I guessed. Then I found that it worked (in the simulation) and so stuck with it. Would be happy to see your hardware/model and discuss it with you, and see what it does!

  15. If your laser cutter can take a pdf diagram for instructions (some of them can), then you can use this. The inner portion is for an axle but maybe it is too wide…I can make the axle diameter smaller.

  16. spiril1 says:

    Hi Joseph.
    Thanks for the quick response.
    I’m going to make the model in some sort of PVC. (transparent = no hidden cheats :)
    I’ve made my own instructions in illustrator and while I got a few other ideas I need to test live, I’ve changed your design a bit. Don’t think it mess up your calculations though.
    Hopefully I’ll have a working model by the end of next week, and I’ll leave you a message after that.

  17. Sounds good Spiril1. Care to show me the modifications so I can see if I think it will affect anything? Good idea on the PVC. It would be amazing to see if this thing rotated right away (model says it should…but we’ll see) cause that would make you and I (or just you ;) ) famous for actually demonstrating a working model. Then you could see what power you can get out of it etc. At the very least, we can finally demonstrate a debunk of the concept which would be valuable in itself…cause you can’t really find that out there either.

  18. spiril1 says:

    :) If this thing works all logic says that it would already have been invented ;)

  19. There is that, and sometimes I use that argument for other things…the danger, however, is if we argued like that all the time, nothing new would ever be invented!! :)

    If you’re able to check it out and finally put it to rest on Youtube, you’ll be doing more than anyone else has with it.

  20. spiril1 says:

    Agree. And I’m just one of those Curious Georges that have to see it for myself.
    Actually I’m most of all amazed that something that is so easily prooven (or not) can take up so much space in peoples minds – and on the internet.
    This, and then my sence of logic that tells me, that your calculations just might be right.

  21. Magnetperson says:

    will it work with smaller sizes of magnets?

  22. It should/might. The magnet dimensions had an effect on the total torque result…but it just needs to be tested. What is most important here is the staggering alignment, and the spacing. If you have smaller magnets maybe the disk could be scaled down a bit.

  23. The over all concept is correct, But the Heat and excess Magnetic Wave or pulse energy will be a problem and your correct “Its Nothing to Play With” you might be able to channel some of the energy off with a coil blanket to draw off the extra energy or you could rechannel it like the pulse wave guys are doing to give the rotor an extra kick, Now as a kid back in the late 50s I read stuff like Boy Experiments etc, So I once took permanent magnets and put a bunch of them on a Lionel train transformer and the Train ran like a scalded dog but the transformer got hot as heck and suddenly the magnets started dropping off the housing, And I found after that the magnets would no longer stick to anything like they just lost their strength so naturally I lost interest as i see that opposing force machines are not really practical but I once did an experiment with a attractive force machine /single force rotor/ and it spun but poorly but one time when I varied the angle the Rotor just got out of control and ran wild so I ad this as a warning since it clear we are getting into areas and forces that men can only dimly understand and I’ve heard on the web where one person did have a rotor -Explode- on him and he got schrapnel in his face tho I dont really know if his rotor fragmented or the latent energy just exploded it?.
    So just a word to the wise here if you are Really gonna build this stuff to be care as the price of progress should never be anybody getting hurt and to close:
    Good Luck In Your Quest:
    Frisco Joe…….

  24. Yah agreed given the torque that can apparently be generated with the correct angles, etc., this thing could “take off” and be extremely dangerous – rapidly moving parts after all. Yes I would think that with such a rapid changing magnetic flux, you’d heat up those magnets pretty quick, and then they’d demagnetize. Well, I wonder though what would happen if you put a big “load” on the thing to keep the rotation rate slow, maybe they wouldn’t heat as much, and maybe it would be less dangerous. Would need a pretty big load though, and maybe a massive electrical alternator/generator could be that load? Anyway, I have the drawings, and will give them to anyone who asks, if they want to build it.

    Thanks for the comment and description of your experiences, Joe.

  25. Spiril1 says:

    Thanks for putting a spot on some issues of the Perendev project.

    My first attempt of constructing a device was no succes. No spinning of any kind. Actually it would do just fine as a magnetic brake.

    While I figure that the problem (and solution) is hidden in the angle of the magnets, I am now designing a device where magnets can be set at any angle and possibly also with some way of adjusting the distance between inner and outer circle. I’ll let you know when I get further with the project.

    Regarding your issues; overheating and magnetic pulse I consider these as the actual potential of the device. Besides from the mechanical adjustments mentioned above, the obvious way of controlling the spin/heat would be to attach a generator. I also consider some sort of wireing of the individual magnets which could possibly absorb some of the excess magnetic flux.

    As for the outer shielding of the device I intend to use the principles of the “Rodin coil”.

    PS: Sorry for my poor English.

  26. Ali Korrani says:

    Dear Joe, can you kindly send me the vizimag file. I am building this on an 8″ sprocket wheel, with .5x.5×2″ N48 magnets. It would help me estimate forces on each magnet vs different angles, Best wishes, Ali

  27. Mogens Larsen says:

    Hi Joseph and others.
    Tested the Wheel above. The only result is, that it makes an excellent magnetic brake!
    I further made the angles between magnets and distance between outer an inner circles adjustable but with no better result.
    As I see it, the only thing left to test is with the use of a different size of magnets but I really can’t see, that would make any big difference.
    Good luck thougt. ;ø)

  28. chad says:

    fascinating thread! I would love to see the schematics for any of the devices you are all proposing. The Ancient Future Mystery People’s Pirate Academy would very much like to apply its alternative energy students to this project.

  29. Carlos says:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu-metal

    http://www.keelynet.com/news/indexapr13.html

    scroll down to: “04/16/13 – Wardle – Magnetic Shielding material using silver”

    Peace.

  30. jaredpbooth says:

    Interesting.. It seemed in the Perendev model some form of shielding was being used… perhaps wrapped around the rotor magnets in order to localize the repulsive force… I wonder if doing some judicious shielding on either the strator magnets or the rotor magnets would help?

  31. AndyF says:

    Just upon curiosity. This Perendev motor design may require some kind of initial external force to turn the rotor to a certain RPM before it can really achieve sustaining or perhaps output some power. The torque required to turn the rotor is high initially (when it is completely stopped). Once a certain RPM is reached, the external force applying to the rotor may not be needed.

  32. I think that would be called cheating AndyF.

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