Does Trapping Running Make Running Run Faster?

From a comment:

m: “Three up to date alarmist arguments for GHE:

1. Absorption spectrum of CO2 seen from satellites proves heat is “trapped”
2. Increase in “effective radiating level” from more CO2 causes surface to warm
3. IR cameras like FLIR prove back radiation effect

It’s hard to keep up with all the nonsense.”

That’s a good concise summary m. They’re worth going over:

1. Absorption spectrum of CO2 seen from satellites proves heat is “trapped”

We know that their primary tactic is to misuse the language of thermodynamics, as is done here. Given that heat is a transient phenomenon when energy transfers across the boundary of a cooler surface as compared to the energy source’s surface, then this statement has no discernible meaning. From the 1st Law, dU = H + W, we see that heat (H) is identical with work (W ) since they appear together being added together. The work that heat performs is in the increasing of the agitation, in the acceleration of the thermal vibrations, of the cooler surface. Heat transfer is directly related to the increased movement at the microscopic scale of the cooler object’s molecules, just as we normally think of work as being involved when we move something.

So what would “trapping work” mean? If anything, it could possibly mean stopping the work from being performed? That would be ineffectual, since this is the cessation of anything occurring. Or does it mean to “trap the movement” that the work has done? That would be ineffectual too, since the movement was performed anyway.

But this is precisely the intention of sophistry: to create terms and imply concepts which have no connection to reality and no rational meaning at all. There is no such thing as “trapping heat”, and no way to interpret what it would actually mean. Heat flow is spontaneous and transient and represents the performance of work done at the molecular level – it doesn’t mean anything to say that one can “trap” this; it is like saying that we can “trap running”, or that we can “trap swimming”, or that we can “trap typing”. Heat isn’t a noun, it is a verb, just as work is a verb. This is why in the First Law heat and work appear equated to a delta, i.e. to a CHANGE, the dU, change in internal energy.

If you ever see one of them talking about “trapping heat” again (of course, this is constant), then ask them how to trap “running”? Heat is an action of energy, not energy itself, and energy can only perform this action if it has sufficient potential. This is just like work: energy may be spent trying to move something, but if there is no movement because the energy isn’t powerful enough, then there is no work performed. Of course this is why they try to equate all energy with heat, but this identical to saying that a shoe is the same thing as running. Energy is a noun, an object; heat (and work) is a verb, an action.

As for the absorption spectrum: that represents that either IR energy has been resonantly scattered given that CO2 is already vibrationally activated from inter-molecular collisions, and/or that the CO2 absorbed the energy and was thus “warmed” by it. On the latter point, the absorption spectrum at the CO2 wavelengths would then indicate that heat has in fact been transferred, not “trapped”. There is of course nothing wrong with the warmer surface heating the cooler atmosphere, and, this is NOT their greenhouse effect.

2. Increase in “effective radiating level” from more CO2 causes surface to warm
3. IR cameras like FLIR prove back radiation effect

These can go together simply because they contradict each other immediately. Again, as we know, their aim is to create language which has no rational meaning and which is constantly self-contradictory. Most of their goal seems to be just to confuse thinking…which is of course a step along the way to their goals of implementing pseudoscience to then use for political control, etc.

Is their greenhouse effect warming caused by 2 or 3? Which one is it? Those are different mechanisms. Typically their greenhouse effect is first described via 3. However, all that number 3 indicates is that the atmosphere has a temperature. We can remotely detect with FLIR the temperature of an ice-cube. Like an ice-cube, the atmosphere is merely a passive object that has somehow attained a temperature from heating which was previously performed upon it. From what process did the atmosphere attain its temperature? Of course: from the Sun. Remotely detecting that an object has a temperature does not mean that the object is capable of supplying the performance of heat to a warmer object.

The atmospheric gas in the presence of a gravitational field and hard surface at the bottom of itself then sorts itself out so that the average thermal energy state is found somewhere in the middle regions: it is mathematically impossible for the average thermal state of the atmosphere to be found either at the very bottom of the atmosphere or at the very top, *even though* most of the heating of the atmosphere occurs at the bottom via conduction with the sunlight-heated surface. Because of gravity, because it is a free gas, and because of statistical mechanics (mathematics), the average thermal state of the atmosphere must be found around the average of the atmosphere, i.e., around the middle altitudes (of the troposphere).

This now goes to 2, in that the only way to increase the altitude of the average thermal state of the atmosphere would be *to have more atmosphere*. This is the reason why Nikolov and Zeller determined their solution that near-surface air temperature was a function only of the solar constant and the mass of the atmosphere.

So as one can see, the alarmists are inventing language and concepts which are indefinable and un-understandable, and which are not consistent with basic mathematical laws, etc. In other words they’re just lying and sophizing, because they can get away with it, because few people in the world have the ability to parse and deconstruct their statements. The wonder is that they have the support of media and some governments and NGO funding which is intent on pushing their language onto the public, which thus indicates an entire and very well thought out campaign at play.

Finally, if one wishes to discuss “trapping”, then we should discuss the trapping of radiant thermal emission which originates from a surface. The ability for a surface to emit is called “emissivity”. Emissivity is a natural property of a surface and cannot be changed remotely. However, if an object does have low emissivity, then indeed its ability to thermally radiate energy is “trapped”, and the object thus raises in temperature to the point at which needs to given an energy supply to it. The entire principle of greenhouse gases is that they are supposed to be good emitters, to radiate energy, and to radiate their energy to space and also back to the surface. However, non-GHG’s have poor emissivity, and do not radiate their energy either to space or back to the surface. Thus if one gas can radiate energy to space, but another cannot, then which gas facilitates losing energy and which gas facilitates trapping energy? Supposed GHG’s must serve to cool since they can emit, whereas non-GHG’s already serve to hold on to and trap thermal energy. Thus, this is just another example of the logical and philosophical and scientific inversions created by flat-Earth greenhouse theory.

I suppose the correct title to be entirely consistent with alarmist pseudoscience would be: “Does trapping running make shoes move faster?”

“Trapping running” is of course “trapping heat”. “Shoes moving faster” is of course “higher temperature”. That is: “Does trapping heat make temperature rise?”

But the title I used is more catchy.

“Does trapping heat make temperature rise?” sounds entirely plausible, doesn’t it!?

“Does trapping running make shoes move faster?” sounds like gobbledygook…which is of course what the previous thing is in thermodynamic terms.

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372 Responses to Does Trapping Running Make Running Run Faster?

  1. Joseph E Postma says:

    I supposed the correct question would be:

    “Does trapping running make shoes move faster?”

    “Trapping running” is of course “trapping heat”.

    “Shoes moving faster” is of course “higher temperature”.

    “Does trapping heat make temperature rise?”

    But the title I used is more catchy.

  2. Joseph E Postma says:

    “Does trapping heat make temperature rise?” sounds entirely plausible, doesn’t it!?

    “Does trapping running make shoes move faster?” sounds like gobbledygook…which is of course what the previous thing is in thermodynamic terms.

  3. Dan M says:

    The first law of thermodynamics is:
    dU = H – W

    You state it as H + W in your initial paragraph FYI

  4. Joseph E Postma says:

    Hi Dan M. That’s a matter of convention. The way you wrote it is a bit older, or traditional, etc.

    Textbooks now typically use H and W to mean inputs, hence get added together. It used to be that it was interpreted at H was input (heating) and W was out, i.e. work done by the given object on its surroundings, hence negative.

    But now, and here, W is interpreted at work done onto the object BY the surroundings.

  5. CD Marshall says:

    That’s an excellent point you made Joseph, how do you trap a verb? Lol. Just like global warming the prefix ing is a continued process. So is the planet actually warming or simply warmer than the previous ice age with shorter periods of warmer and colder cycles.

    The entire premise of global warm[ing] is false.
    So should it be climate is changing?

  6. boomie789 says:

    480w/m^2 emitted from earth would be 51C?

    I think Im starting to get why no one answered. Frigging impossible to understand.

    I was trying to do this calculator and gave up.

    So I looked at the image I made and figured that out this way.

    34.75K x 2=69.5K

  7. Malcolm A Smith says:

    Does trapping heat cause temperature rise doesn’t sound plausible to me. If you were to trap heat it magically can get hotter without another heat source. At the same time. With 75% of the planet covered in cooler water cooling down the planet. Simple thought to a more logical conclusion

  8. CD Marshall says:

    480 W/m^2 is around 303.30 Kelvin or roughly 30 Celsius.

  9. CD Marshall says:

    Oh assuming my math is right 🙂

  10. boomie789 says:

    @CD Marshall

    How do you know that?

  11. CD Marshall says:

    I’ll show you how to use that calculator just looked at it. They tried tot each me the SB law I am not very confident at it, I do confuse myself sometimes. Would be nice if they gave us noobs a step by step.
    The Calculator:
    Area: 1
    Material: Blackbody
    Radiative Power:
    Put in the W/m^2 you’ll get the temp, which was 303.3 Kelvin so I was close, 30.175C. Or you can put in temps I did 30C and got 479.9 W/m^2.

  12. CD Marshall says:

    I use calculators no way I can do this in my head like these guys. Even on a calculator it’s not that easy.

  13. boomie789 says:


    I was trying to put the surface area of earth in. Thank you so much CD.

    I don’t get why that is 1 but ok.

  14. boomie789 says:

    of course 480W per meter squared, I see it now. lol.

  15. CD Marshall says:

    Neither do I Boomie, neither do I.

  16. CD Marshall says:

    What off Earth is this insane Planet X stuff about? The one I heard was a rogue planet that hits our solar system every million years or so?

    I’ve heard so many different versions though its like flat earth theory.

  17. No idea. Pure speculation.

  18. boomie789 says:

    Ill stop posting this now.

  19. CD Marshall says:

    So I looked into this Planet X more and it sounds like global warming to me. Someone did some calculations and someones said it may be seems like it could very be something.


    It has a cult following and a web page:

    Wow this is like Flat Earth.

  20. boomie789 says:

    Nibiru? I’ve heard that before.

    You ever looked into the ancient aliens theory? I think niburu is the planet the annunaki came from who supposedly hybridized us to mine gold for them.

    I’ve only seen 2 compelling pieces of evidence for this, which I can’t confirm. They apparently found heads with giant brain cases.

    The debunk is they just had water in their skull, but apparently brain ridges are throughout the entire skull, they claim. If it were just water the inside of the skull would be smooth.

    Also something about our chromosomes looking like they’ve been tampered with, I can’t remember.

    those might be it.

    If your interested Mark Passio did the best breakdown I know about.

    *Mark Passio is an interesting guy, he claims he was an ex-satanist priest who got a taste of the world wide cabal.

    I’ve heard he is a protege of David Icke

    Google is lying about that link, btw. It’s just a wiki.

    David Icke is the reptilian overlord guy.

    I do not know if their claims are true, but I doubt it.

  21. boomie789 says:

    wrong video

  22. Energy is a noun, an object; heat (and work) is a verb, an action.

    I’m going to attempt to get pedantic here, only to show that aspiring real intelligence strives to distinguish and manipulate nuances, in order to shape nuances of higher understanding.

    Actually, both “energy” and “heat” (“work”) are nouns. BUT they are nouns that describe DIFFERENT categories of being.

    “Energy” describes a relatively CONTAINABLE quantity, while “heat” describes an relatively UNcontainable quantity.

    “Energy” describes a quantity that is relatively stable in time and space, while “heat” describes a quantity that can only be realized BECAUSE it MOVES THROUGH time and space.

    Language is a bitch, and that’s why idiots seek forgiving and acceptance for not striving to understand things properly through proper use of language.

    Heck, I may have just confused myself and others even more. But, at least, I tried. (^_^)

  23. Trapping running makes me move faster than I otherwise would. The mechanism is backstriding.

    Backstriding adds 33 more steps to the steps that I already do under my own power.

    Each foot landing presses back with twice the power of impact from gravity’s attraction. So, back gravitation is also a mechanism. Zoe could probably explain this better than me. (^_^) [Hi, Zoe, I know you’re reading]

  24. boomie789 says:

    Idiot sent me some pictures

    When I run the numbers, it always balances out, so I don’t see the problem. It’s always 240 W/m2 in and 240 W/m2 out at the top.

    I don’t see a way to get 480 going to space without breaking the laws of physics, so I think your numbers are wrong.

    Each layer has to obey conservation of energy. So all the arrows going in need to equal all the arrows coming out.

    Draw it out for f=0 and f=1 and you’ll see. One of them is “no greenhouse”. The other is “complete and total greenhouse”. The real world is in-between.

    For example, here is when f=0 (no greenhouse effect at all).

    And here is when f=1 — maximum greenhouse.

    Note that conservation of energy is preserved. At every layer, all the arrows are balanced.

    This is exactly how a space blanket works: it doesn’t generate heat magically, it prevents heat from leaving.

    “How can you not see you just doubled the suns input? How does the sun provide 240w/m^2 and the atmosphere also provides 240w/m^2?

    If you don’t see it by now you never will.”

    After this discussion, I pity this guy. I will rename him from Idiot to Naive Fool. It’s like he is blind.
    Right there in front of him and he can’t see it.

  25. boomie789 says:

    Proud of this one, I think i can crush the space blanket argument from now on.

    That model applies directly to a greenhouse. The inside of the greenhouse(atmosphere) does not re-emit the suns energy, doubling it.

    The model does not describe a blanket. It is not trapping heat. The model does not apply to a space blanket. If we had a space blanket wrapped around the atmosphere of the earth, do you think the surface temp would be hotter or colder?

    colder. That right there should be a hint that the mechanisms you think are at work, do not apply to this model.

    Stop confusing energy and heat. Heat flows from hot to cold.

  26. Rudi K. says:

    1. Look at Will Happer’s talk at Heartland COP25.

    2. CO2 does not “trap” heat. The satellite view of IR emissions merely shows that Earth’s emissions in the CO2 waveband are radiated at the top of the troposphere.

    3. Doubling CO2 would not make much difference. CO2 only affects a narrow part of the IR spectrum and its effect is largely saturated.

    4. “Back radiation” is not a heat flow. Some of the IR radiation in the lower troposphere is absorbed by IR gases. This is a heat flow from the surface into the air. The warm air rises due to convection. The IR gases (mostly water vapour, but also CO2) radiate away the heat to space from the upper troposphere. The cool air stops rising and sinks back down to the surface. This is a classic thermodynamic heat engine (air conditioning for the planet).

    5. As pointed out elsewhere, the “back radiation” mechanism is a recipe for a “Perpetuum Mobile of the Second Kind”, by permitting the flow of heat from a cold surface to a warm one, and is prohibited by the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

    6. Climatologists should stop pretending that they understand the physics of radiation and go and study some classical meteorology.

  27. Philip Mulholland says:

    “Climatologists should stop pretending that they understand the physics of radiation and go and study some classical meteorology.”
    Rudi K.
    I totally agree. They would do well to start with the works of George Simpson and his 1929 paper The Distribution of Terrestrial Radiation in Memoirs of the Royal Meteorological Society, Vol. 3, No. 23, 53-78..

    Click to access simpsonmemoirs_3.pdf

    Simpson was the first to identify the atmospheric window and he was President of the Royal Meteorological Society (1940/41)

  28. nilator says:

    Let’s say i have a laser that emits a ray of light at 12,000 nm wavelength at an object in the vacuum that starts out at absolute zero K. Is there a way to reason my way into an resultant temperature that object will have. (max T perhaps). I am somewhat familiar with Wien and Planck but hoping someone more familiar with physics could guide me through the intuition required for this problem.

  29. boomie789 says:

    Well this is it, I’ve been going in circles. Please let me know if I said something dumb or wrong. So I don’t say it next time.

    Naive Fool-
    Jesus H Christ on a stick, I make satellites for a living dude. I literally get paid to know this shit. How do you think satellites maintain the proper temps? — they RADIATE excess heat into space. And I’ve been patiently trying to teach you the tiniest fraction of knowledge that you learn in like Thermodynamics 101, but you seem to have an impenetrably dense mind.

    But ok, fine. I’ll bite.

    Answer this, in a actual green house being hit by 960 W/m2 (88°c) will the inside of the green house exceed 88°c?

    Yes, it will. Greenhouses can achieve a higher temperature than the incoming radiation. Like cars, they can easily get over 100 degrees, so ventilation is needed.

    If we had a space blanket wrapped around the atmosphere of the earth, do you think the surface temp would be hotter or colder?

    If the blanket let in all the sun’s rays but blocked IR from leaving, it would be hotter, obviously. The same way a blanket traps heat from the body. This is a pretty simple concept — if heat can get IN but it can’t get OUT, the inside will heat up.

    Try microwaving something in a glass container vs by itself and see which one heats up faster…

    You are not thinking!

    First of all agreeing to the first question is a violation of conservation of energy, second law of thermodynamics.

    That is creating energy. Just flat out wrong.

    The Maximum temperature that greenhouse could be, since it’s only energy source is 960w/m2, is 88C.

    Very concerning you say yes.

    The second is a lack of critical thinking.

    CO2 in the atmosphere reflects IR coming in too. The more IR it reflects before getting to earth, the colder earth would be.

    So what happens if we put a super IR reflector around earth?

    Like you said, if heat can get in but not out it will warm.

    So the more IR reflector you put around earth, the less that gets in at all.

    Naive Fool-
    Conservation of energy and the second law of thermo are two different things. You know that, right? Hard to take someone seriously when they mix up the first and second laws.

    Conservation of energy applies to closed systems. If there is an energy source streaming in, it’s not closed. If you include the sun, so it is closed, then there’s more than enough energy there to heat up a tiny greenhouse.

    And of course, you see this everywhere. The solar irradiance at Venus is 2601.3 W/m2, or 190 deg C. But the surface temperature is well over double that at 462 deg C (average). In some places it’s almost 800C.

    CO2 in the atmosphere reflects IR coming in too. The more IR it reflects before getting to earth, the colder earth would be.

    Correct IF that was the ONLY way heat got in. But the Sun radiates across the spectrum. Heat comes in on other radiation and then can’t get back out. For example, you know about UVA and UVB — ultraviolet light. A photon of ultraviolet will shoot right past a CO2 molecule and hit your skin, heating it up and causing a sunburn. It re-radiates off your skin as infrared heat and gets blocked by the same CO2 that let it in. Heat gets in but can’t easily get out.

    You can test this with 2-liter coke bottles and some alka-seltzer. Just put both in front of a lamp for an hour — one with CO2 from the alka-seltzer and one without. The CO2 bottle will be hotter even though they have the same heat source. It’s an experiment even kids can do…

    Venus is at much higher pressure and has molten lava on its surface.

    Jupiter is a also extremely hot, because of the pressure, not the green house effect.

    Once again, the bottle will not generate the energy provided and add it back to itself.

    The bottle is like a small greenhouse

  30. boomie789 says:

    What has academia done to this poor bastard?

    Complete this thought:

    If a bottle with trapped CO2 is like a small greenhouse, then a planet with trapped CO2 is like a large __________?

    The air on earth can rise and cool.

    The air in a greenhouse cannot escape.

    Earth atmosphere is not like a greenhouse, it narrows the temperature spectrum on earth.

    For instance, if the earth didn’t have an atmosphere, it would be like the moon. Extremely hot on one side and extremely cold on the other.

    We are also getting away from the model, which does not describe a greenhouse.

    A greenhouse traps warm air.

    The model doubles the input energy.

    If the model where true, 960w/m2 would turn into 1920w/m2 inside the greenhouse, defying thermodynamics.

    The air on Earth cannot leave Earth. It is trapped.

    The model doubles the input energy.

    This is your fundamental misunderstanding. The solar flux stays the exact same.

    Radiation is based on TEMPERATURE. If you are warm, you glow in infra-red. If you are hot, you glow red-hot. If you’re really hot you glow white-hot.

    When you put a blanket around something, it gets warmer.

    If it’s warmer, it MUST radiate at a higher temperature.

    The air on earth cools as it rises. The air in a greenhouse does not get to cool, because its trapped.

    Does cold add to hot?

    The reflected energy is dispersed in ALL directions.

    A blanket traps the heat, it does not increase your emittance, you just created energy.

  31. Barry says:

    Boomie I once built a sea kyack, so let me tell you about all the properties of water. It always amazes me that after all their ridiculous statements they fall back to their superior intellect and we just aren’t able to understand.

  32. boomie789 says:

    @ Barry

    Like Postma said, academics can be the stupidest people you will ever meet.

    Does cold add to hot?

    You keep saying this, and everytime you do it makes you sound stupid, because you’re confusing conduction/convection with radiation.

    Does cold add to cold? Can you rub two ice cubes together to make them colder? Of course not!

    Does cold add to anything? No!

    Cold doesn’t exist. You can’t add “cold” to something. You can only take away heat, and eventually it reaches absolute zero. It’s called absolute zero because it’s impossible to make it colder.

    And yes, radiated energy can flow from something cold to something hot, because radiation only depends on the temperature of the radiating object. Even climate change deniers know this! Here’s a direct quote:

    To summarize …

    • Heat cannot flow from cold to hot, but radiated energy sure can.

    • A cold atmosphere radiates about 300-plus W/m2 of downwelling radiation measured at the surface. This 300-plus W/m2 of radiated energy leaves the surface warmer than it would be if we were exposed to the 3 W/m2 of outer space.

    We are talking about heat.

    You are the one confusing energy and heat.

  33. geran says:

    boomie, the fish you’ve caught is still repeating the same GHE pseudoscience from years ago. He’s trying to add the divide-by-4 solar (240) to back radiation (240) to get 480 W/m^2.

    His multiple mistakes indicate he hasn’t learned anything. Clowns that have learned something are now claiming “slow the cooling”, to avoid appearing as complete idiots. You’ve caught a REAL clown!

    He’s trying to add fluxes. He’s trying to bake a turkey with ice cubes. Ice emits more than his precious “240”. Ice emits 300 W/m^2. So, he’s trying to say two ice cubes would be emitting 600 W/m^2. 10 ice cubes would be emitting 3000 W/m^2. With his perverted “physics”, if he adds enough ice, he should be able to bake a turkey.

    Don’t expect him to understand the relevant physics. He’s braindead.

    But he’s hilarious.

  34. boomie789 says:

    Thank you geran.

    He keeps responding and I have an issue with leaving him with the last word. lol, I want to stop but I can’t.

    I have to just drop it there.

  35. geran says:

    nilator, a laser is designed to “organize” photons. The operative word is “coherent”, which means the photons are generated “in phase”, i.e., additive. Such organization does not occur in nature. So the usual S/B and Planck Laws do not apply.

  36. boomie789 says:

    lol, I mislabeled myself as Naive Fool. True in a sense, but compared to that guy, I know the mind of God.

    Delete other dup please, this is where i wanted this comment, sorry.

  37. Rudi K. says:

    Thanks, Philip
    But I can’t seem to find the George Simpson web.archive file from the link.
    Is there another source?

  38. One problem in understanding or in accepting rational explanations is trying to compare warm air to heat.

    Air, in a sense, CAN be trapped, and so heated air, in a similar sense , CAN be trapped. BUT, in these instances of discussing radiation and heat, we are NOT talking about air. We are NOT talking about HEATED AIR. We are NOT in the molecular realm — we ARE in the sub-molecular realm.

    Confusion between these realms partly drives the seeming stupidity.

    Molecules en mass are NOT like sub-atomic particles en mass.

  39. boomie789 says:

    Wow, he apologized for calling me stupid, that’s never happened before. This guy is no sophist, just a zombie.

    I quoted this, posted in the last comments I think.
    – Elementary Applied Partial Differential Equations, Haberman (1998)

    Nothing you quoted contradicts anything I said, because that entire quote is about conductive heat. The greenhouse effect is based on radiative heat.

    Do you understand the difference?

    Heat only flows one way, hot to cold.

    Slowed cooling is not represented in the model, the model doubles the input.

    Yeah, this is where the problem is. You fundamentally don’t understand the 3 forms of heat transfer.

    Radiative heat transfer is very, very different from conductive/convective heat transfer. The transfer mechanism is electromagnectic radiation, not physical contact. Think radio waves, flashlights and microwaves. Anything a flashlight can do, radiative heat transfer can do. Anything a microwave or radio tower can do, radiative heat transfer can do.

    Can you bounce a flashlight off a wall and light up something indirectly? Yes.

    Can you bounce infrared radiation off a wall and heat up something indirectly? Also yes.

    Do the walls of the microwave need to be hotter than the food for it to work? No.

    Does a radio tower need to be hotter than your radio receiver for it to work? Also no.

    Radiation is fundamentally different than conduction and convection. I cannot stress that enough.

    Your arguments would be right if the model was a convective model. Can a cold atmosphere heat up a warm ground via convection? No!!! Absolutely not! In conduction and convection, heat only goes from hot to cold. But can a cold atmosphere RADIATE toward a warm ground? Yes, it can!

    These are the fundamentals in Thermodynamics. It’s just like the fundamentals of Supply/Demand in the market. People who don’t understand supply/demand spout nonsense about “market controls”, because their views rest on a fundamental misunderstanding of how the world works. And people who don’t understand radiative heat transfer spout nonsense about “hot to cold” for the same reason.

    I apologize earlier for calling you stupid. You’re not stupid. But your entire argument rests on not understanding that radiative heat transfer is very different than the normal, day-to-day conductive/convective heat transfer that you’re familiar with.

    I accept your apology. Ty.

    You are the one who is confusing convection/conduction not me.

    What happens in that model, does not happen in reality. You are defending that model, with arguments that do not apply to it.

    The light from the flashlight reflects off the wall.

    If the model where correct it would reflect off the opposite wall in the room, go back to the original wall, and double the energy provided by the flashlight.

    That is what you are not comprehending.

  40. boomie789 says:

    I’m really stopping here. I swear.

    What is my grade? I think i’m getting good at this. More time, more knowledge, more confidence.

  41. geran says:

    “But can a cold atmosphere RADIATE toward a warm ground? Yes, it can!”

    “Radiate toward a warm object”, yes. But absorbed by the warm object, NO.

    He can’t bake a turkey with ice cubes, even though photons from ice are radiating toward the turkey.

  42. boomie789 says:

    Thank you Geran, I should have said that.

    I sent him that too.

  43. Joseph E Postma says:


    Sush a caveat or exception separating the behaviour of radiative heat flow out away from the other modes of heat flow DO NOT EXIST in ANY textbook.

    In conduction of heat down a metal rod, the molecules on the cooler side of the gradient are bouncing and vibrating against and towards the hot side of the gradient too!! Thus you can see that there is no difference. And also, both of these scenarios are mediated by electromagnetism…it is the exact same force of physics mediating conductive and radiative transfer. In conductive transfer the energy is exchanged by virtual photons between electrons, in radiative transfer the energy is exchanged by free photons between electrons…just at greater distance! IT IS THE EXACT SAME FN THING!

    Oh god guys…we have down syndrome retards in charge of academia.

  44. Joseph E Postma says:

    “your entire argument rests on not understanding that radiative heat transfer is very different than the normal, day-to-day conductive/convective heat transfer that you’re familiar with.”

    What an inversion!

    THEIR entire argument rests on *inventing* that radiative heat transfer is very different than the normal, day-to-day conductive/convective heat transfer that you’re familiar with.

    See this is what I mean…they have just invented an entire alternative language of thermodynamics, and deny that thermodynamics applies to radiative heat transfer.

  45. Joseph E Postma says:

    Look at the equations:

    Conductive heat transfer Q = k* (Thot – Tcool)

    Huh look at that heat flow from hot to cool. Now we should find something remarkably different for radiation, as per their claims. Let’s see:

    Radiative heat transfer: Q = s*(Thot^4 – Tcool^4).

    Hmm… Heat transfer from hot to cool!

    ANYTHING that they say about backradiaiton with acknowledgement of the above radiative equation can thus equally be applied to backconduction. There are Tcool terms in both of those equations, which means that the energy of Tcool should be affecting Thot in both cases as per their argument.

    I wish I could become a God. I would set all these people on fire simultaneously around the world. Just make them all set on fire spontaneously.

  46. boomie789 says:

    I wonder how many people would be left.

    “The angels of Postma came to me in a dream. They say I must find 10 honest physicist in academia or he will burn it all down!”

  47. says:

    Dear Joe, Brilliant! What a copy-line.In an earlier life I used to be an advertising copywriter and I can tell you without irony that ‘Does Trapping Running make Running Run Faster’ is brilliant.I am still working through all the other stuff you have sent.Unlike you, with kids, I started early. The guys at college bought me a Wedding, Christening, and Twenty-First birthday present all in the same box. My son James was born when I was twenty one and your namesake, Joe, when I was twenty four.I came across the German girl Naomi Seibt recently – you may have heard of her. Like Greta she was a climate activist but then she looked at the science. She is older than Greta, about nineteen I think, but very eloquent and very sensible.I will have lots of questions for you soon but other stuff gets in the way from time to time so I’ll be in touch. Kind regardsDavid (McCobb)

  48. Joseph E Postma says:

    Cheers David.

    Yes Naomi is great. Amazing to see a child (young adult) awaken so early. This is the greatest threat to them of all.

  49. Barry says:

    Good morning Joseph another stupid question. Isn’t flir just a digital picture of temp variations in what ever you point it at if that is so then what point are they trying to make other than there are different temps everywhere.

  50. Joseph E Postma says:

    That’s exactly it Barry – they’re just using fancy terms to pretend they know what they’re talking about when they’re actually entirely FOS.

    You can remote-sense the temperature of an ice-cube. You can remote-sense the temperature of the cold atmosphere.

    Heat flows one way…flat Earth is wrong…their greenhouse effect scheme is an ad hoc add-on to try to make flat Earth theory work.

  51. Barry says:

    Sorry should of said ir energy rather than temp

  52. Barry says:

    Thanks just want to keep it right in my mind,thought I must be missing something.

  53. boomie789 says:

    Fun read about propaganda.

    “Did you know that Latvia and Montenegro are better places to raise your kids than the United States? Also Bosnia and Saudi Arabia. It must be true. It’s what the experts say.”

    “Scratch the surface and you’ll discover what is driving the report: climate-change alarmism. In every way they can think of, elites are trying to make ordinary Americans desperate about climate change, so they can wheel their Trojan horse full of policy proposals into the United States.

    The Lancet study was rigged to deliver the desired outcome of a low finish for the United States. Our low ranking was mainly due to our coming in 151st out of 159 countries for “sustainability.”

    The leading countries in this category are mostly African ones. Because what “sustainability” means is “lack of consumption,” and what “consumption” means is “wealth.” Rank countries in ­reverse order of wealth, and the United States is going to be near the bottom.”

    “Yet when you ask actual citizens of Earth where they would most like to live, apart from their own country, America always finishes first — and by a wide margin. Gallup polling confirmed this, most recently in December 2018, when 21 percent of global would-be migrants said they’d like to come to the United States. Canada and Germany tied for second place, way back at 6 percent.

    So here’s my idea for a global-experts survey: How many global experts who create surveys for a living are moving to, say, Bosnia? Can I see an 86-page collection of bar graphs and pie charts illustrating the concept of zero?

    The Lancet report, this is pure propaganda straight from Lucifer.

    It’s a rough cringy read.

    “Children and young people are full of energy, ideas, and hope for the future. They are also angry at the state of the world. Worldwide, school-children and young people are protesting about environmental threats from fossil fuel economies. We must find better ways to amplify their voices and skills for the planet’s sustainable and healthy future. The SDGs require governments to place children at the very centre of their plans to address this crisis. This Commission makes positive and optimistic recommendations–but we have no time to lose, and no excuses if we fail. A new global movement for child and adolescent health is today an urgent necessity.”

    They want child soldiers. They want to hide behind them like human shields. They’re is only one way to deal with that. If we let the child human shield work, they will use more children.

  54. Good god what idiotic propaganda.

  55. boomie789 says:

    The elders are old and outdated, stuck in their way. If we want true change we need the children in charge.

    This type of thinking is what drives your society off a cliff. Children know nothing. Children are stupid and naive. They have no choice but to obey authority. They are incapable of fighting. Their brains are still developing for Christ sake.

    They are flipping the family hierarchy. They dream of a world where children betray their own family for the state. Like in the USSR when children were encouraged to report their family to the KGB if they spoke out about communism.

    Getting fired up just thinking about it. If I were a god the people who use children like this, would have the worst punishment imaginable.

    Vive la revolution

  56. If puppy dogs could talk, then I think these people would use puppies instead of children.

    When you can’t succeed using logic, use the most extreme tactics of grasping people’s emotions.

    I’ve got a couple of ideas:

    * Use heroin — In a world of unprecedented existential climate crises, this drug of choice is destined for extinction. Your voice and your donation can prevent this critical dismantling of your life, as you know it.

    * Use sex — This is Tasha in her prime as an exotic dancer at the height of her career, but her days are numbered because of humankind’s relentless hunger to use fossil fuels that threaten the very foundation of Tasha’s life. Your voice and your donation can keep Tasha strong, beautiful and deliciously dedicated to continued service of fantasy needs around the globe.

  57. boomie789 says:

    lol Heroin? alrighty.

    Sports-This is coach Reinhart. Soon, his football stadium that cost 500 million dollars, taxpayer subsidized of course, will succumb to a landslide because of the havoc wreaked on our climate by C02 emissions. We in the democratic party, ask for your support to prevent Donald Trump from destroying our beloved stadium.

    2 birds with one stone.

  58. Sports is a great idea for capturing the heteronormal, heteronomal-identifying male, and gay male segments of the population. I’m not sure about other gender-fluid classifications, however. I’m open to ideas.

    Also, as an aside, I think the “trapping of running” idea could be leveraged into a hugely successful marketing strategy to sell more running shoes.

  59. This is mind boggling, but here’s the link to that particle-physics debunking of CO2 heating again, which showed up somewhere in a post at climateofsophestry, but I lost it, and so I searched out where I believe it was originally posted:

    Too bad, the writer remains anonymous, since those robot alarmists who might even understand it would surely ask for assurances of the writer’s sources of knowledge.

  60. geran says:

    Robert, I often visit “iceagenow”, but I missed that. The writer is able to explain complicated issues in readily understandable ways. Thanks for sharing the link.

    You’re correct, clowns will demand “peer-reviewed” verifications of his expertise, not realizing this is all well established in the field of quantum physics. Knowing that they can’t understand such topics, I just use simple examples such as “You can’t bake a turkey with ice cubes”. Here’s how the writer explains it (bold my emphasis):

    “For vibrational and/or rotational modes, there must exist a magnetic dipole for photon absorption to occur. The molecule is unaffected by nonresonant frequencies, and if the molecule is already excited, even radiation at the correct frequency will be rejected (scattered) by the molecule.

  61. morpheusonacid says:

    The real tragedy acing out here is the inability of huge numbers of the supposedly well educated western population to understand the basic concepts presented. Today, in Bristol, Greta Thunberg is talking to protesting children and the city of Bristol has been brought to a standstill. I suspect not one of the child protesters would be even willing to read this piece, let alone ask questions if they did not understand it. I note that some comments refer to Naomi Seibt. She makes some very sensible observations, but when she does mention science, she is still referring to carbon dioxide warming the atmosphere. She is just making money from this and not adding anything to the debate.

    It is astonishing how little people understand about our advanced civilisation. They have become users of technology and have no understanding of it. They have turned into zombies walking down the street staring at mobile phones. I even saw a young child in a pushchair, dummy in mouth, absorbed by a phone display. Nothing is taking place to develop their brains, certainly not in schools.

    Last night the BBC Question Time was shocking. The complete lack of rational thinking on any subject and the complete dependence on the state for solutions was unbelievable. On the COVID19 virus they were expecting that the government had empty hospital wards, beds and staff to be available to treat thousands of people if it becomes necessary. The politicians avoided the question. Where do they think these facilities can come from? Every country in the world may have the same problem. Then we have the third Heathrow runway judged to be illegal because it does not comply with the UK government’s climate policy which they have made a legal requirement, so the courts are now deciding policy on almost everything. The entire audience were in a state of panic about a climate crisis that does not exist. In the UK we think we can keep bringing in skilled immigrants to do the jobs we are not able to do, and unskilled immigrants to do the jobs we do not want to do. We have no regard for what is happening in the countries they come from and would not want our experts to leave the country. This seems to me to be very similar to the Roman empire. It fell when the Romans had to rely on immigrants and slaves to do what they wanted and the original civilisation was destroyed.

  62. George says:

    Robert, I think the authors name is Robert W. Felix. At least that’s the name he uses for his two books on that blog.

  63. geran,

    To add to what you were saying, the particle-physics debunk of CO2-warming alerted me to another interesting aspect: CO2 molecules in the atmosphere exist beside N2 and O2 molecules in huge quantities that are as the CO2. CO2 is not just being heated by Earth radiation, then, but also by the ambient air of which they are parts themselves.

    CO2, thus, is being excited translationally (I think) by all these other molecules, thereby causing CO2 to constantly emit, which is a COOLING effect, NOT a warming effect. CO2 sort of distributes energy and facilitates the rate of convective cooling (if I understood this at all correctly).

    Alarmists talk about CO2 molecules as if the molecules exist alone and receive excitation ONLY from surface radiation, but CO2 is embedded within the whole mass of the warmer atmosphere, getting warmth (being warmed?) by this air mass too. One CO2 molecule in 2500 other atmospheric molecules has no mechanism, as I see it, in known physics, to control the temperature of those other 2500 air molecules.

  64. George,

    Robert Felix is the person who wrote those books, yes, and the owner of the website, I think, but if you look at the by line of the actual article, then you will see a pseudonym and somewhere a statement about the actual author’s wishing to remain anonymous, for fear of being ravaged by the mad dogs of climate alarm.

    Robert Felix posted the article, but did not write it, as I’m seeing it.

  65. geran says:

    That’s correct, RK. The net effect of radiative gases is cooling. Radiative gases are NOT energy sources, and add no new energy to the system. But, radiative gases leak energy to space. They can’t warm, but they can cool.

  66. boomie789 says:

    Guys I think I convinced someone!

    “So what happens to the radiation from the Earth? I don’t understand f(sigma)Ta4 being doubled. Is that a problem? I always thought it was bs”

    “The radiation from earth dissipates in all directions.

    You get concentrated sunlight at the equator.

    That concentrated energy gets re-emitted in all directions by earth.

    The lower concentrated energy cannot add to the higher energy.

    Cold doesn’t add to hot.”

    “sorry to be dense but what is ‘lower concentrated energy’ in this case?”

    “Imagine a flashlight shining on a glass ball.

    The concentrated beam gets dispersed in all directions. The same amount of energy just less dense.”

    “so less dense light doesn’t add to the higher energies?”


    thanks! that’s a great resource you put together. I dont quite understand it all yet but ill get there

    And remember Naive Fool?

    Naive Fool
    “I appreciate it, but I’ll stick with the people who can publish in peer-reviewed journals.

    Enjoy your copy-pasting.”

  67. Exactly. See guys this is about the strategy we need to begin to employ. We know that they have a very well-defined play book…all of us here have studied it in the field to every letter…we know their playbook now like the back of our hands. Embedded in everything that say is a response that destroys them. We should literally write our own playbook…I’m serious. Let’s all collab on it!

    For example, they *always* refer to GHG’s radiating “both up and down”. They focus on the “down” part. However, all that WE need to point out is “if GHG’s radiate half of their energy to space, but non-GHG’s do not, then GHG’s provide a cooling mechanism for the entire atmosphere.”

    So then typically the response is “But this causes a temperature gradient and makes the bottom of the atmosphere the warmest.” And so this is a sub-clause type of thing.

    The response is “the temperature gradient is caused by gravity, and is called the adiabatic gradient; everyone in meteorology knows this and no one claims it is from GHG’s”.


    We need our own “Skeptics Handbook”, except it will actually get to the core of the matter.

    Guys we have ALL the moral and intellectual authority that we need! They are literally doing flat Earth theory, we have all the references to show their diagrams, we have EVERYTHING. We should be cutting through these frauds like a hot knife through warm butter at this point…we should absolutely be cutting them down.

  68. Oh of course with the dig about peer-reviewed journals. Did you send that F*CK F*CE my video where I show what happens when you try to tell a climate alarmist organization that the Sun heats the Earth and the Earth isn’t flat!!!!!!!??????????

    Just call him a flat Eather Sun denier. They sun-denying flat Earther’s. Just keep calling them that. They’ll say they aren’t…but who cares….they ARE…they ARE sun-denying flat Earther’s up unto the point where they reject the greenhouse effect and climate alarm based upon it.

  69. Just speak of it (sun denying flat Earther’s) as if it is a forgone conclusion (because it is), and orient your approach to be not about the climate at all, but about wishing to debunk flat Earth theory where we automatically assume that climate alarmists support it, etc.

    “It’s only a zero-order model used for teaching.”

    Yes, and as such it teaches flat Earth theory, because that is what it is a model of. Further, at the admitted basis of how they begin to teach/research about the climate, this flat Earth idea is then *parameterized” into the more complex models, thus infecting the more complex models with the VERY SAME flat Earth theory.

  70. And lastly…I AM published in peer-review astrophysics journals. I currently have a paper mid-way through review in the astrophysics journal “Publications of the Astronomical Society of the Pacific”, which is one of if not THE highest ranked journal in astronomy.

    But when I try to publish in a climate journal stating that the Sun heats the Earth? Climate science rejects that the Sun creates the weather, or heats the Earth. This is the fact. Don’t let them sidestep. Don’t let them pretend it didn’t happen. They’re the biggest quacks science has ever seen.

  71. geran says:

    “Sun-denying, flat-Earthers”

    Perfect! Love it.

  72. CD Marshall says:

    On YT Potholer is the one to take out. On other sites the trolls mention him more than anything else well him and Skeptical Science.

    You should introduce yourself on Potholer’s site, expect a week long battle if not more. Or do a video debunking one of his. Here are some…He is such a twisted liar.

  73. boomie789 says:

    “According to the IPCC’s definition, the GH effect is caused by the GH gases and clouds which absorb infrared radiation of 155 Wm-2 emitted by the surface and which they further radiate to the surface.

    This same figure has been applied by the research group of Gavin Schmidt calculating the contributions of GH gases and clouds.

    As we can see there is a problem – and a very big problem – in the IPCC’s GH effect definition: the absorbed energy of 155 Wm-2 cannot radiate to the surface 345 Wm-2 or even 270 Wm-2.

    According to the energy conversation law, energy cannot be created from the void. According to the same law, energy does not disappear, but it can change its form.

    From figure 1 it is easy to name the two other energy sources which are needed for causing the GH effect namely latent heating 91 Wm-2 and sensible heating 24 Wm-2, which make 270 Wm-2 with the longwave absorption of 155 Wm-2.

    “Imagine you have a power source (a battery) that represents the sun. It has a perfect voltage of 10 volts for the example. Also you have a capacitor that represents the Earth. Connect wires from the battery to the capacitor. The battery will fill the capacitor to a maximum of 10 volts.

    If you are the IPCC though the capacitor will be filled to like 13 volts. Somehow it has more power than is being added.”


  74. boomie789 says:

    I can remember watching a lot of potholer back in the day. Another was kingcrocoduck? something like that.

    Boy was I blind back then.

  75. immortal600 says:


    Thank you. I see at the bottom of the comments section that the author uses the nom de plume of LOL@ Klimate Katastrophe Kooks. I have seen him occasionally post on cfact articles. He knows his stuff!

  76. George says:

    I should have sent that with the name “George” in response. Sorry. I don’t like having to log in and out of WordPress.

  77. Barry says:

    That would be a really good idea Joseph. A small almost handout size book that could show that they are in denial of the sun warming the earth,this has become my opener now when people get on about ghg and climate. When you ask the question what heats the earth nearly every lay person out there say the sun then I follow with you obviously don’t believe in agw. But a lot of them do. Very sad you can’t have it both ways.

  78. Take a look at this:


    this (by a physicist):

    and …

    … a must-read, … to see LOL@ Klimate Katastrophe Kooks … doing some fine schooling of WUWT folk:

    He sure seems to know his stuff. Masterful. He seems to be able to out bullshit and intellectually outmaneuver any critic there. I want to know who this guy is. (^_^)

  79. That last link I offered was intended to get you to the comments. Forget the article, and go to the comments there — those are the main course, in my view. (^_^)

  80. boomie789 says:

    “The way greenhouses warm us really the only way it could work.. if the Earth was covered with a some. They dont model the whole atmosphere even, thats why these things cant have the effect they say it does. Not in the same way.”

    Proud of this response. Maybe, I should be a teacher.

    “Their model has no basis in reality.

    The earths atmosphere doesn’t operate like a green house at all.

    A green house traps warm air. That’s it. It prevents the hot air from rising and cooling.

    “Answer this, in a actual green house being hit by 960 W/m^2 (88°c) will the inside of the green house exceed 88°c?

    Answer= NO”

    The absolute maximum the temp inside the greenhouse could be is 88C

    There is no reason why that model should not be applicable to real green houses.

    If the model WERE correct, the inside of the green house would generate ANOTHER 960w/m^2.

    which gets added to the suns 960w/m^2.

    The earth’s atmosphere limits the temperature spectrum on earth.

    If the earth had no atmosphere, it would be like the moon, extremely hot on one side, extremely cold on the other. The temperature spectrum is very wide.

    On Earth the atmosphere blocks a portion of the suns energy, dispersing it.

    Preventing us from feeling the full force of the sun.

    Imagine if the earth had a at least 100ft deep ocean across it’s whole surface, and no atmosphere.

    Take the temperature of the sea floor of the side of the earth facing the sun, and the temperature on the sea floor on the opposite night side. Same distance underwater of course. These two temperatures will be quite close together.

    Now remove all the ocean and do the same temperature measurements again, the temperatures will be on completely opposite sides of the spectrum.

    The atmosphere has substance, mainly water vapor. It retains and transfers heat from the sunny side, to the night side.

    The same thing happens in places with very little water. I’m sure you’ve heard how deserts can be below freezing at night, and blisteringly hot during the day. Because there is little substance(water) to propagate heat flow.

    Feel free to ask me any questions and visit us @

  81. Yes exactly – a real greenhouse should demonstrate it! So it should demonstrate getting to 960 + 960 = 1920 W/m^2.

    Want to know the temperature of that flux??

    156C! 360F!

    We could just boil water rapidly and easily by having a simple little container to put it in exposed to the Sun…how great for camping! We could create steam power work cycles just by exposing water contained inside a little greenhouse to the Sun!

    Now why doesn’t this work? It’s because energy is always flowing…this gets back to everything…all of thermodynamics! Radiant emission is spontaneous, and radiation doesn’t add because it is bosonic not fermionic. So in order for a radiant flux to induce an effect…it has to come IN with the power to do that in the first place. Because once it comes in it goes right back out, but what goes right back out is at best the same as what came in and thus cannot have greater effect than what came in. Two 960 W/m^2 spectra are still just two spectra of objects at 88C. So you cannot add two 960 W/m^2 to get a higher temperature induction just as you cannot add the two 88C objects providing those spectra to get a higher temperature. You see!?

  82. boomie789 says:

    Right, so not only is the 960w/m^2 generated out of no where, but even two seperate sources of 960w/m^2 to not add together to double the temperature.

    Just like a ice chest full of 300w/m^2 ice doesn’t start to cause nuclear fission.


  83. boomie789 says:

    The logical tapestry I weaved there, I think is irresistible to a uncorrupted mind.

  84. Pablo says:

    Interesting thing going on at WUWT right now between Zoe and Willis:

  85. I wonder why he uses an input of 1360 W/m^2?????

    Shouldn’t it be 340 W/m^2!!!!!

    He’s going to turn it into the Earth, and then make it hotter with some stupid scheme. Let’s see him make it hotter than 1360 W/m^2.

  86. I wonder why, in the solutions from the usual alarmists, they don’t re-add back-conduction from the cool side back to the warm side?

    Of course, you could never make that work in a rational way. Yet they do it with radiation.

    Instead of concrete, just have the hot and cool surfaces be thin layers, and vacuum in between them. Now the radiation from the cool layer “must add back” to the warm layer, “thus raising its (warm layer) temperature”. You will immediately violate conservation of energy, just as Willis did with his “steel greenhouse”. You wouldn’t be able to solve the equations in this case, or there would be something wrong with the solution, just as there was with the steel greenhouse.

    What is Willis going to do next…? He’s going to put a glass layer with a gap on the sun-ward side. Then he’s going to say that backradiation from the new layer makes the block get even hotter on the warm side, a-la the GHE.

    However, this would also increase the temperature of the back of the block due to conduction, which would mean that the glass surface would have to be cooler, which would also make the warm surface cooler than it should have been, also making the back of the block cooler than it might have been. I bet there would be no sensible solution to the equations at all.

    Just like his Steel Greenhouse debunked the greenhouse effect, this scenario does too if you actually do something interesting with it!!!!

    I tried to post:
    “Please show the solution when the hot and cool sides of the block are just thin layers and have vacuum in between them, and do not forget to include back radiation from the cool layer.

    Also show the solution when a VIS-transparent & IR-absorptive glass layer is put in front of the warm surface, again including the effect of back radiation on the sun-ward layer from the glass.”

    In that latter question, it is a concrete block again.

  87. JohnnyKnoxxvile
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    February 28, 2020 at 2:00 pm

    Please show the solution when the hot and cool sides of the block are just thin layers and have vacuum in between them, and do not forget to include back radiation from the cool layer.

    Also show the solution when a VIS-transparent & IR-absorptive glass layer is put in front of the warm surface with a small vacuum gap in between, again including the effect of back radiation on the sun-ward layer from the new glass layer. In this case, it is a concrete block again.

  88. How do the people like Ed Bo and Spencer answer this textbook problem…but then invent all this alternative non-textbook junk about back radiation!?

  89. MP says:

    In my old house i had a gas fired heater in the living room. 1 by 1 meter, and half a meter thick. Attached to the wall on the back side and a glass window on the front side. It had between 1 and cm thick black metal plate on the backside.

    That few centimeters thick black metal plate on the backside was put there to redirect heat to the glass window, and after that the living room. When the back plate is in equillibrium with the heat that the hot gas photons on that distance, the photons get scattered. Preventing that the neigbour wall gets over heated, and making sure that the room gets heated.

    This proves that lower or equal excited state energy can’t add to equally or more excited state of energy, it just gets scattered.

  90. CD Marshall says:

    In physics, this is law. A cooler object cannot warm up a warmer object more.
    Energy can transfer without a change in temperature.
    The Sun=Hot. Earth=Warm. Atmosphere=Cold. Space=Colder.

    How would I write that as a simple equation example?

  91. CD Marshall says:

    @Robert Kernodle
    I’ve used a modified version of one of your replies as my standard reply to the appeals to authority. I’ve sued it only several times so far, but it actually softened one person to become instantly less defensive. More people should use this as a standard reply to trolls and their pleas to authority.

    “Your use of the word, “consensus” as if it means something special. I gather is supposed to be demeaning to any other point of view.

    Why not just refer to my views without attempting a seat of authority? I’ll answer that — it’s because you want to imply that my views have no factual foundation, which they DO. You want to convey the impression that you are in a superior position, which you are NOT, precisely because evaluation of ALL the facts leads a rational person to wonder why those organizations you mention fail to consider the sum total of actual facts that are ignored by thousands of scientists who do not agree with that so called, “consensus”.

    Why do all those organizations choose to align themselves with an international governmental body that slants and politicizes the facts? Arguing from the authority of those organizations, thus, is essentially a defense of their failure to weigh all the facts and a defense of their failure to present an honest assessment of those facts.

    Without merely appealing to their authority, have you yourself attempted to assess the facts, using your own mind, to check whether those organizations are deserving of your trust?
    I have and I found trust in those establishments to be without merit.”

  92. CD Marshall says:

    Bo: “Like many over at PSI, Zoe confuses the case of static equilibrium (no power transfers) with dynamic steady state conditions (constant power transfers). This means that she, like the others, goes off the rails before she even gets going.

    To anyone familiar with basic thermodynamics and heat transfer, it should be obvious that this problem is the second case of dynamic steady state.”

    Interpretation: I’ll use confusion and misrepresentation to explain that I refuse to accept the fundamental laws of Delta T.

    (((We can’t afford people to know the GHGe is based on disproved science!)))

  93. geran says:

    Pablo’s WUWT link was interesting. Some of the comments were hilarious. Zoe was her usual “loose cannon” self. Firing in all directions, very occasionally getting something right, but maintaining her near-the-bottom average. Willis didn’t seem to know how to handle her.
    It was fun to watch.
    There appears to be something suspicious about the timing of Willis’ problem. The “steel-greenhouse” and “blue-green plates” pseudosciences have been thoroughly debunked. Are the Sophists going to try some new trick? Kind of telling was ol’ Doc Spin himself, providing his solution to Willis’ problem. What’s with the concrete block in space? Are they going to attempt some new “proof” of their GHE?
    Stay tuned….

  94. Something weird is going on for sure. The problem is what you would find in undergraduate thermodynamics. I am surprised to see the usual suspects write out and explain the correct solutions as they did. If they can do that, then why do they add back in backradiaiton whereas they don’t add back in back-conduction?

  95. For those who might not know, Zoe and Willis were sparring at Zoe’s blog. Basically, Willis gave up on her there, and I bet his WUWT post was a reprise to help insure that his impression of Zoe’s ideas would not spread far and wide.

  96. boomie789 says:

    “”Geothermal is negligible.”-quoting me

    What´s the surface temp. of earth? The temp. in -1.200 m (N.N.) is around 40°C. There is an temp. increase of 2-3°C per 100 m depth.”

    “And despite that giant molten iron core, the poles are frozen solid all year round. Even with the help of the sun.”

    “Earth is a hot planet and the heat is caused by fusion and pressure. Weight causes heat since it´s work. There are different layers causing different effects. Like the atmosphere.”

    “What do you think the surface temperature of earth would be if the sun turned off?

    If sun just turns off like a light?

    The surface temperature would rapidly deplete to temperatures much colder than the poles. So we can leave it out of equations having to do with exciting water vapor in the atmosphere.”

    That geothermal stuff came in handy. Such a distraction.

  97. MP says:

    Just got banned for stating how my old gas fired heater in my room worked on a Dutch pro AGW site lol. Without a relevant explanation

    This topic.(all understand English)

  98. Jopo says:

    It is all making so much more sense. Facts of life. The emissions area has no diurnal activity. So output is naturally across the globe. thanks guys

  99. boomie789 says:

    So there is no textbook in climate/meteorological science that says that happens?

    Or a gradient centered at the equator?

    I bet the Russians have it in their textbooks.

  100. boomie789 says:

    “Low pressure fronts are generally cold and or wet, high pressure fronts are generally warm and or dry. If the GRACE data is accurate then we can see that gravity also raises sea level, not to mention atmospheric pressure. Also, if Vuckcevic is right then magnetic anomalies would also increase or decrease cloud cover. It seems quite relevant to me.”

    Your model demonstrates reality so well I don’t know why people want to bring all that into it.

    “So we can leave it out of equations having to do with exciting water vapor in the atmosphere.”

    Yep, sorry, it was a response to that comment in regard to weight and heat. Lief Svalgaard and Vuckcevic have argued over this for years on WUWT. Two heavy hitters in their field. So much for settled science. ;)”

  101. Richard says:

    Thank you for your inspiring efforts, Joseph.

    I am RterBorg on that site and I tried to explain to them that heat going from cold to hot is impossible. They still believe that this is possible though and direct you to . I have no time to read the articles on scienceofdoom today, I will do so tomorrow.

    Joseph, what is your opinion of scienceofdoom?

  102. Jopo said: The emissions area has no diurnal activity.

    I’m thinking that the emissions area does have diurnal activity, because as the sunlit side receives energy, it also emits energy, and when that side goes into night, it continues to emit energy, but more than it receives.

  103. I think I messed up the logic of my last comment.

    The day side emits at the same rate, but for a longer span of time on the dark side, loosing more cumulative energy at night than it gains during the day, when that side is in sunlight.

    Is that wording okay?

  104. boomie789 says:

    The claim in this headline is not shared by most climate skeptics.

    Tony Heller (aka Steve Goddard) on WUWT:

    >There is a considerable amount of misinformation propagated about the greenhouse effect by people from both sides of the debate. The basic concepts are straightforward, as explained here.

    >The greenhouse effect is real. If there were no greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, earth would be a cold place. Compare Mars versus Venus – Mars has minimal greenhouse gas molecules in its’ atmosphere due to low atmospheric pressure, and is cold. By contrast, Venus has a lot of greenhouse gas molecules in its’ atmosphere, and is very hot. Temperature increases as greenhouse gas concentration increases. These are undisputed facts.

    >Heat is not “trapped” by greenhouse gases. The earth’s heat balance is maintained, as required by the laws of thermodynamics.

    That is Tony Heller in 2009

  105. Yah this is one disappointing aspect of Heller.

  106. geran says:

    Heller’s education is geology. He doesn’t understand physics AT ALL.

    I hardly ever go to his blog anymore, but PSI sometimes links to one of his youtube videos. It’s possible he’s graduated away from his former lukewarmer position, so I don’t like to bad mouth him. It takes folks time to learn.

  107. George says:


    You are right about LOL@Klimate Katastrophe Kooks! The link to the exchange on WUWT between him and Andrew W WAS enlightening! WOW! He certainly comes across as extremely knowledgeable, well beyond my ability to determine whether he’s right or not. However in reading what was going on between those two I would say that LOL got the better of Andrew W. Has he ever posted here? I don’t recall it, if so. Not only was that link enlightening it was entertaining as well. Thanks, Robert, for the link!

  108. boomie789 says:


    He’s had to have seen Postma’s work by now. If I was able to find it and understand it in one day, I’m surprised he can’t.

    Has he ever mentioned Postma?

  109. boomie789 says:

    Well. I didn’t fully understand the first day.
    But it didn’t take long.

  110. boomie789 says:

  111. boomie789 says:

  112. Good lord! — check out this gem from WUWT, in the now really long comment section of the latest Willis thought experiment with the concrete block:
    Zoe, you seem to be in thrall of the “a colder body cannot heat a warmer body” axiom that we keep seeing from less informed sceptics who want to deny the existence of the greenhouse effect. That is only true if you’re talking about black body radiation. In the atmosphere, radiation (photons) generated by molecules of water (and CO2 to a lesser extent) when they drop from an excited (higher energy) state to a relaxed (lower energy) state is not black body radiation. At least, that’s how my simple geology brain understands it. I could be wrong; I’ve been wrong before (although that may come as a surprise to those who know me).
    … one layer of non-reality trying to inform another layer of non-reality.
    The big takeaway from that comment? — Thermodynamics proper does NOT apply in all instances.
    Who knew?
    Yours truly,
    A … “less informed sceptic” (^_^)

  113. Barry says:

    And they call us deniers

  114. geran says:

    The censors at WUWT must have been asleep. When I delivered such a crushing blow to GHE years ago, I got censored immediately. “leitmotif” somehow got through.

    I especially enjoyed: “Wow! Total Bernie Sanders! You are actually averaging temperatures and fluxes? Is this your Roy Spencer moment?”

    It’s almost as if I were making that comment….

  115. This morning, I had a major insight that I think will change everything. I have figured out why people who believe in catastrophic human climate change can continue to believe as they do, in light of critical facts to the contrary. Now, I must warn you that I am only at the beginning stages of this paradigm-changing theory, … I haven’t worked out the math, … and I haven’t done the pretty graphs and diagrams, .. but here is the gist of it:

    Climate alarmists are those people afflicted with a unique genetic disorder that enables them to do something that rational people cannot do — back defecate. Yes, that’s right, back defecate. You see, back defecation enables these people to be 33% more full of shit than they otherwise would be.

    There’s much work to be done on this proposed theory, but, at least, I have taken the initial step to formalize it.

  116. Barry says:

    I think you are onto it now Robert let me know when you hav worked the physics out and try to keep in mind that actual physics don’t relate to climate science just everything else in the world.

  117. CD Marshall says:

    That comment from Heller was from 2009, I’m pretty sure he got banned from WUWT in recent years becasue he reconsidered the greenhouse effect and was excommunicated from the global warming church. (Perhaps I am misinformed.) he might be on a shorter leash there now.

    I have mentioned and shown Joseph some of Heller’s recent videos where he is “softly” denouncing the greenhouse gas effect. I have stated on his site “strongly” renouncing the GHGe and explaining to the best of my abilities as to why. He does not comment to myself, not one ever, but he has not banned me either.

    That is a change from his very early comments from years ago, where he sounded like Spencer/WUWT/Monc and threatened to ban people from stating he doesn’t believe in the GHGe.

    His process is slow. Perhaps if someone reached out to him with an actual physicist background and softly led him into a better understanding he might be more open minded?

    He is very intelligent, far more than a geologist in his education. He understand models and how to make them, programs and so forth.

    Not that geology is a poor science, it is not, but has been given a bad rap in politics becasue most geologists initially denounced global warming as impossible for different reasons based on their field of expertise than say a particle physicists. In fact, many meteorologists denounced it too in the beginning.

    Many geologists I’ve talked to (or claimed they were) are still very passionate about GHGe being false.

  118. boomie789 says:


  119. CD Marshall says:

    Sorry, I meant the GHGe from CO2 being wrong. Now their belief in the ghge itself is open for debate.

    Most can see CO2 warming is wrong but they don’t see GHGe as actually being wrong and that is the problem.

  120. boomie789 says:


    Ah interesting. That makes sense. He’s done way more good than bad.

  121. Heller should appreciate my Thermodynamic Budget post…plus the post and vid about the AMS peer review.

  122. geran says:

    CD, Heller is a hardcore environmentalist. He believes mankind can destroy the planet. He is obsessed with himself. Like many of the other clowns, he has no respect for reality. He has no understanding of the relevant physics. He has no job, no income, and depends on contibutions to survive.

    He knows the wackos cannot support him, so he relies on Skeptics. At the head of his blog:

    “People have been extremely generous this month, and are making it possible for me to not work, and do what I want to do with climate. I have been focused on content, and have not done a good job thanking people individually. Working on that today.”

    He has no incentive to end the nonsense.

  123. Jopo says:

    Robert Kernodle @ 2020/02/29 at 8:30 AM

    Yes Robert If I could retract that post I would A non diurnal temperature at emissions height does not mean a steady state OLR.

    But that non diurnal temp at 500Mb approx has me thinking.

  124. Jopo says:

    I am a Tad confused on the talk about Heller.. My recollection of his videos is that he feels Pressure has much to do with climate.

    case. he is a Jusrt found two where he clearly infers pressure instead of back radiaition is the cause

    Video : Greta Makes Earth As Hot As Venus

    The Difference Between Earth And Venus”

  125. CD Marshall says:


    He hasn’t been making those claims as openly as he is now. I heard he had a falling out at WUWT a ways back but I know nothing about it, might not be true at all (you know how climate rumors are).

  126. geran says:

    Jopo, CD, or anyone else not already censored by Heller, ask him “Will adding more CO2 to the atmosphere raise the temperature of the planet?”

    It’s a simple question, answer is a simple “yes” or “no”.

    Then, prepare to be censored.

  127. boomie789 says:

    The bottom of the grand canyon is hotter because of pressure?

    What about the Mariana trench or similar? or this thing? Shouldn’t it be hotter at the bottom? Or is my logic flawed? 10C per 1000m?

  128. boomie789 says:

    I’m not saying things won’t be hotter at a higher pressure, of course, but I think my examples are relevant.

  129. CD Marshall says:

    I thought that too once upon a time, but air pressure and water pressure are completely different. The ideal Gas Law PV=nRT (Pressure,Volume equals # of moles, ideal gas constant and temperature) is for gas not a liquid. The Ideal gas Law only works effiencetly for a portion of the atmosphere closer to the surface (as I understand it). How exactly that works I shall leave to my betters.

  130. Also, I don’t think that the issue is JUST pressure — it’s pressure where there is a constant flux of energy that can PENETRATE the medium. Sunlight cannot penetrate the depths of the ocean and other deep places to provide enough energy for pressure/density to be a heating issue, as I see it.

  131. boomie789 says:

    Why is he pooping in a dog’s bowl lol.

  132. I think it’s a kiddie potty, boomie, … although a dog bowl would seem appropriate, since the science seems to be going to the dogs.

  133. CD Marshall says:

    Your question is getting people worked up over at Heller. Tony has not replied.

  134. boomie789 says:

    Did anyone figure out how fast and how cold earth would get if the sun turned off? If the sun turned off like a light?

    how many degrees does the temperature drop per minute or hour?

    Eventually the surface would have to get below -100C if my thinking is right. Does it hit that in the first 24hrs? or the first hour? A couple days?

    You can ballpark it, i don’t expect someone to break out the calculus.

    My guess is you hit -100C not long after 24hrs. Interesting to think about.

  135. CD Marshall says:

    Surface temps and ocean temps are very different. Surface temps could keep a moderate temperature for days (where humidity is higher), oceans for decades to centuries.

    My ballpark guess would be 72 hours before land temperatures plummeted globally below zero.

  136. boomie789 says:

    Wow that long huh.

    Over 10 years before the ocean completely freezes?! Wow. You sure?

  137. I distinctly remember LOL@Klimate Katastrophe Kooks making a comment in one of the recent threads here. He delivered his long explanation of the particle-physics debunk of CO2 warming, but I could not remember which thread, as they all tend to get fairly long these days, so searching to find the post led me nowhere. That’s why I searched him/her/it out at other places. He/her/it HAS posted here, … once.

  138. boomie789 says:

    A desert can hit below freezing in one night.

  139. CD Marshall says:

    The ocean would never completely freeze, becasue of geothermal. Ocean surface hard to say how long that would take? Cooling would start at the poles and keep going until the Equator was the last to freeze over, because more solar energy would be stored in the oceans at the Equator.

    However this is just a wild guess.

  140. boomie789 says:

  141. boomie789 says:

    it would go past -100C at the surface right?

  142. boomie789 says:

    −40° C at north pole in winter

  143. CD Marshall says:

    I would certainly think -100 on the surface. In a full blown ice age we’d have to depend on geothermal more, for what little life survives.

    Life would need to be inside domed cities in an ice age. No Sun you would have to live deep underground closer to the core.

    Deep mines go over 100 degrees so it’s feasible to comfortably live underground. Nuclear power would add to that comfort zone. Resources would be the hard part, such as food. Water could be easily taken by melting ice, they already do that in Antarctica.

    The worse part would be constantly on the lookout for C.H.U.D.

  144. Also called women.

  145. geran says:

    “Your question is getting people worked up over at Heller. Tony has not replied.”

    Thanks CD. I couldn’t find it, but it’s a good sign if Heller even allows the discussion. He used to shut down discussions of the “real climate science”.

    Heller is clever and his videos are effective. He would be even more effective if he understood the relevant physics. Maybe link to one or more of Joseph’s videos, before you get censored. 🙂

  146. boomie789 says:

    I love Women

  147. geran says:

    NASA indicates Moon has temperatures between 95 K (“day”) to 390 K (“night”)

    95 K = -178 ºC, -288 ºF
    390 K = 117 ºC, 242 ºF

    Interestingly, NASA also claims Moon gets too hot to accurately measure the peak temperature. even thought it gets the same solar as Earth!

    Daytime levels were difficult to measure due to heating and outgassing of Apollo surface experiments.

    Obviously the Moon needs some CO2 to cool it off…

  148. geran says:

    Obviously that should be 95 K (“night”) to 390 K (“day”)

    (Will never learn–shouldn’t comment before 3rd cup of coffee.)

  149. Barry says:

    It appears that the sun does have at least some ability to heat objects roughly 93000000 miles away although not sure we should mention sending them our co2 as some brainless politician might come up with a new carbon capture system sending it to the moon. I was watching a documentary on Vietnam war and thinking how closely are politicians are following the same path in regards to climate hoax ( who cares what the facts are as long as I get reelected). These people really don’t care about what would happen to our society without fossil fuels. They have already stolen enough from us to survive and really don’t care about the welfare of the children they are using for soldiers.

  150. CD Marshall says:

    The Vietnam War was a testing ground for US and Soviets, the lives lost were pawns in their chess match. With a decisive military strike they could have ended that in 3 days. Ironically, the US was dragged in by the UN who pulled out immediately after the US took over.

    Our president (US), Johnson, should have been impeached for that whole mess.

  151. boomie789 says:

    “Climate Change Denier”

    Omfg what slander. Who denies the climate changes? NO ONE.

    What’s the best label for us?

    Climate Truthers? Something like that.

    Shootout to Willie Soon.

  152. boomie789 says:

    We should just call them psuedo-scientist.

  153. CD Marshall says:

    Geran and fellow fighters,

    I put it on Tony Heller and Potholer54. Potholer54’s acolytes called me out as a Postma follower, that sounds like a challenge to me. My YT is Christopher Marshall and I have Joseph’s model as my picture.



  154. boomie789 says:

    should link you to the right part. Willie Soon says earth’s only power is from radioactive decay.

    “point zero….something” percent of energy being given off(sun’s).

  155. geran says:

    CD, that response you got was most telling: Your “adding” could mean anything, and your “raises” is simply thown out with no context.

    Pure sophistry. He won’t answer the simple question. He has to throw out a smokescreen. He pretends he doesn’t understand “adding” or “raises”!

    What a clown.

  156. boomie789 says:

    My usual post

    Lol the lackmust guy sent me that Zoe link. Geothermal. Jfc.

  157. Stalking us everywhere!!

  158. Who denies the climate changes?
    — boomie789

    That’s just the thing: Nobody in their right mind denies that the climate changes. But that’s NOT the real question, because when alarmists use the phrase, “climate change”, they are NOT talking about the proper broad meaning of this phrase. And so calling somebody a “climate change denier” is NOT a real claim, by the proper definition of the phrase, “climate change”.

    They are talking about their own, shortsighted, hijacked replacement-definition of the phrase that they are trying to force down everybody else’s throats as THEIR own arrogantly reconstructed definition of the phrase.

    This way, when THEY use the phrase, “climate change”, they force everybody who understands the PROPER, broad definition of the phrase to get thrown off balance, because, they force their definition of the phrase onto you to make it look like you are really disbelieving the broad, more general, proper definition of the phrase, which sets all skeptics up for ridicule, on the basis of the broad, general definition, rather than on the false, fabricated definition that goes unspoken by them in their labeling of people.

    It’s a word trick. It’s a form of aggression via sophistry — hijacking language and reinventing it in false colors of their erroneous bias. It’s (ass)inine.

  159. Exactly. It instantly forces one into irrational terms. We should instantly force them into rational terms and call them flat earth sun deniers.

  160. boomie789 says:

    What’s the solution? Hi-jack it back?

    That is wizardry in the occult. Literally words casting spells and curses on people.

  161. boomie789 says:

    Sun denier. If I had to use two words like climate denier.

    “You’re a climate denier!”

    No, you’re a Sun Denier.

  162. geran says:

    Good work, boomie. Here are some extra points of interest:

    Lack of sufficent CO2 causes hyperventilating in humans. The minimum safe level is about 150 ppm. That’s why the immediate treatment for hyperventilating is to breathe into a paper bag. That allows the person to take in a higher level of CO2, restoring the bodies reserve.

    The minimum safe level for plants is about 250 ppm. The best level for all plants is about 550 ppm. Many commercial florists try to maintain about 1000 ppm in their greenhouses. Navy submarines can operate up to 8000 ppm, with no adverse effects to crew.

    For ice to only be emitting 240 W/m^2, it would have to be well below the freezing point. Ice at 0 ºC emits about 300 W/m^2.


    As opposed to their stupid up and down ghg emission…which means ghgs lose energy but the others don’t anyway etc.

  164. boomie789 says:

    88c is a little hot for coffee.

    Maybe I should just say boiling water.

  165. boomie789 says:

    I like

    “Why do you defy the laws of thermodynamics?

  166. CD Marshall says:

    That IR guy I’ve been talking to is the most dense millionaire on the planet. His stupidity baffles me so much how is he rich?

    This is my last reply:
    “You do realize its not technically a hole right? Some O3 still exists.

    I will try and spell it out for you again this time in more detail why I bother is beyond me? Maybe I am not being clear for which if that is the case, I am sorry. You are contradicting everything I say and twisting it around. I do expect people to fill in the gaps w/o explaining every little detail. O3 is made becasue of the actions of UV, that same UV that breaks apart O3 in the Ozone layer creates it in the Oxygen layer by splitting apart O2 and allowing those molecules to join with another O2 to form O3, so yes UV creates O3 by breaking down O2 to form O3!

    So UV breaks down O3 in the Ozone layer and helps create it in the Oxygen layer. For gawds sake is that so hard to understand?

    So let’s use common sense here, at the angle of the Poles at certain seasons the UV clips the tops of the Ozone layer and does not follow through to the Oxygen layer so what happens? It breaks down O3 AND DOES NOT HELP CREATE IT becasue the UV is not hitting the Oxygen layers at that angle.

    However, contrary to belief, O3 can still be made in the Ozone layer if O2 and O collide again to form O3. This layer also has Hydrogen, Methane, Sulfur and CFCs and these freed O and O2 molecules are most likely to join and create CO2, H20 and other compounds before they would another 03.

    So without the UV hitting the Oxygen layer, it is unlikely that enough 03 will be made to replenish the O3 destroyed.

    Are you following me so far?”

    Seriously how much clearer could I possibly be? So this was this moron’s reply:
    “you literally said the UV needs to get down to the Oxygen layer to create Ozone.

    You said UV is needed in the Oxygen layer to create the Ozone.

    This is just complete nonsense.

    Why you had the rewrite what I wrote back you I don’t know.

    Maybe if you actually wrote the proper chemistry in the first place I wouldn’t need to mention it. It does actually help to be correct. 19 hours ago what you wrote was wrong.

    Sorry, but it was.

    Why you couldn’t just say “sorry, I misspoke back then” everything would be fine. But instead you had to make it out that it’s me getting it wrong…. Even though you wrote back exactly what I had just said! {and} there is no Oxygen layer.

    My final reply:
    “My explanation could not possibly be more clear. Technically their is no Ozone layer or Oxygen Layer, it is a layer within the layers, O3 goes all the way to the surface, the place where it is mainly referred as “the layer” is in the Stratosphere.

    The Oxygen layer isn’t a real layer either, the “ozone layer proper” sets above the highest point of Oxygen, or the Oxygen layer, or the limit of oxygen in the atmosphere, that is right under the Ozone layer. As I said some O and O2 exists in the Ozone layer.

    How many times are you going to twist this around? Are you trying to set a record of the most worthless thread on YT?

    Now as far as simple chemistry goes, it you aren’t aware that UV can break the bonds of O2 I can’t help you.”

  167. boomie789 says:

    @CD Marshall

  168. boomie789 says:

    The ozone layer is a range of altitudes in Earth’s stratosphere which has a higher concentration of ozone molecules. Ozone is an unusual type of oxygen molecule. It is created when high-energy ultraviolet light from the Sun strikes a normal oxygen molecule.

    The ozone layer extends from roughly 15 to 35 km (9 to 22 miles) above sea level. The peak of ozone concentration is between 20 and 25 km (12 and 16 miles). Concentrations typically range between 2 and 8 parts per million, though they can rise as high as 15 parts per million. About 90% of the ozone in our atmosphere is contained in the stratosphere. The ozone layer isn’t actually a separate layer of Earth’s atmosphere; it is a region within the stratosphere.

  169. boomie789 says:

    Hey Naive Fool! how’s it going?

    “Option A: Trust 1000s of climate scientists across multiple countries and political beliefs with what they say about the climate.

    Option B: Trust an astrophysicist that thinks he’s smarter than all of them.

    It’s a pretty easy choice.”

    What does it matter what Postma thinks of himself? The evidence speaks for itself.

  170. CD Marshall says:

    @boomie789 lol
    Indeed. This guy is a fn millionaire making IR devices who he has probably made millions off of climate change and can’t afford for the truth to come out.

    Robert K described these guys perfectly somewhere on here.

    “UV creates Ozone”
    “No it doesn’t! Ozone is made when O and O2 combine.”
    “Yes but UV breaks those bonds.”
    “No it doesn’t the Sun does.”
    “The Sun emits UV.”
    “No thermal reactions in the Sun creates UV.”

    You just can’t win with some people.
    Deny-Deflect-Discredit rinse and repeat as needed.

  171. boomie789 says:

    “No thermal reactions in the Sun creates UV.”

  172. CD Marshall says:

    They did make a C.H.U.D. 2 I haven’t seem it yet. My friends and I loved the first one we saw it at the movies. My older sister was dating one of the Ushers so I could get into any movie wanted…Until they broke up.

    Movies and arcade games was my mainstay as a kid when I wasn’t playing football, baseball or kickball.

  173. boomie789 says:

    @CD Marshall
    Never seen or even heard of C.H.U.D. ill check it out.

    The new best Mel Gibson film might be “Man Without A Face”. Holy cow extremely highly recommended. Mel Gibson was always pretty woke. Deep themes about family, fatherhood, singlemotherhood, overdose of femininity. I cried…really deep man.
    Psst…I watched it here

    Did you watch any Chernobyl?

  174. boomie789 says:

    let me change that to “Mel Gibson was always pretty based”.
    I like that word better.

  175. Watch Chernobyl in one go Friday night. It was good. Disturbing.

  176. boomie789 says:

    Yes. I had no idea how big of a disaster that truly was.

  177. boomie789 says:

    One of the themes of Chernobyl is peoples’ bold face denial of the truth, encapsulated in that gif.

  178. Philip Mulholland says:

    “But I can’t seem to find the George Simpson web.archive file from the link.
    Is there another source?”
    @ 2020/02/27 at 9:31 AM
    Hi Rudi,
    Just noticed your request. The web archive link works for me, The original file is lost so the Wayback Machine is the only source I have.

    Click to access simpsonmemoirs_3.pdf

  179. I just found this archive of commentary kung fu by the LOL@Klimate Katastrophe Kooks guy, … doing more good schooling of some WUWT folk [again, forget the article and go to the comments section where LOL@Klimate guy enters the stage]:

    … educational on many levels, … and entertaining. Masterful. Inspiring.

    He must be some sort of quantum mechanics engineer, just having fun. (^_^) … eating lukewarmers for breakfast.

  180. Post some examples here?

  181. CD Marshall says:

    I’m reading his work, of what I am reading so far this is the only flags as I am not sure of the meanings. I question the comment becasue without IR gas the planet would actually cool faster, no obstruction of IR to space from the surface.

    “An atmospheric greenhouse gas enables a planet’s atmosphere to radiate at a temperature lower than the surface temperature if there is cold air aloft. All other factors held constant, this would cause the surface temperature in balance with a given amount of absorbed solar radiation to be higher than would be the case if the atmosphere were transparent to IR. Of course, all other factors are not held constant… radiative flux and convection in particular increase. This is why Clough and Iacono’s study (linked below) showed CO2 to exhibit a spectral cooling rate at all altitudes from surface to thermosphere, except for a slight warming at the tropopause.”

    “The only way our planet can shed heat is via radiative transmission of energy to space. N2 and O2 (the two largest constituents of the atmosphere) are homonuclear diatomic molecules, so they have no net magnetic dipole and thus cannot effectively emit (nor absorb) infrared, and thus cannot shed energy to space. CO2 has been shown to cool the troposphere, the stratosphere, the mesosphere and the thermosphere (studies below). Indeed, CO2 is the largest contributor to upper atmosphere cooling. Without CO2, the planet would heat up due to a reduced ability to radiate energy to space. If the upper atmosphere cannot cool via CO2 radiative emission to space, the air below would not be able to convect upward, thus quickly warming the entirety of the atmosphere. Thus CO2 acts as a cooling gas, not a ‘heat-trapping’ gas. More CO2 will cause more radiative emission to space, thus the upper atmosphere will cool more, thus tropospheric air can convect more easily, thus cooling the troposphere more effectively. Indeed, this is exactly what is observed (studies below).”

  182. boomie789 says:

    wow it’s a book’s worth.

  183. CD Marshall says:

    LOL@Klimate Katastrophe Kooks he’s ruffling arrogant feathers over there for dare says heat goes from hot to cold.

  184. Joseph E Postma says:

    Actually Chernobyl reminds me of the current virus thing.

    There was a scene in Chernobyl where the scientist protagonist quips to I think a military person who was asking how to solve this problem, and the scientist replies something to the effect of “This situation has never occurred on this planet before.” Think of it…gives you a sense of the scale of the problem. They were operating a device which if failed would produce a situation never before seen on the planet and with no real solution…and they were testing it to limits which were entirely outside of any expected designed operating conditions.

    Get this too: If the move was correct in what the purpose of the test was…they were trying to get the system to power itself in the case of an external power failure and where the diesel back-up generators were not working. Sound familiar? Funny hey.

    Anyway…reminds me of COVID19. We’re designing and building things, genetic structures in this case, which have never before existed on this planet and which the entire evolutionary biological history has never interacted with before.

    The hubris, comes first. And then, the stupidity and incompetence of those who follow. It was hubris to design a nuclear machine which, if failed, would produce a situation never seen on this planet before and which could contaminate entire continents. And then of course it does fail, because people are idiots. And so hubris designs a genetic structure never before seen on this planet, and then stupidity gets itself contaminated with it and goes for a stroll to the fish market.

  185. Max™ says:

    Sadly I’ve been happier since I stopped trying to fight comforting beliefs with uncomfortable facts.

    I do chuckle over being straight up laughed at for suggesting that a column of gas in a gravity well is going to end up at higher pressure and density near the surface, thus it is going to be warmer there.

    “Ha ha, max thinks pressure causes temperature, what a mook” so I try and try to argue around their objections.

    Went through setting up a whole thought experiment of a column of air in free fall in a tube, then asking what happens when you accelerate the tube along the long (now tall) axis so the air “falls” and compresses at one end.

    There’s always a “yeah, but” waiting.

  186. boomie789 says:

    It’s even worse than that. A RBMK is the only reactor to explode and breach containment like that for 2 reasons.

    They didn’t build a 3 foot thick concrete steel re-enforced containment barrier, like literally everyone else, to save money. They had to build one after though, known as the sarcophagus.

    Secondly, they also built the only nuclear reactor to use carbon as it’s moderator, instead of water.
    In western reactors, if all the water boils away, the reaction pretty much stops.

    In a RBMK reactor, if you ever stop pumping water to cool it, it will meltdown.

    They were so arrogant.

    Fukishima is a good example of what happens when the absolute worst case scenario hit, but foresight and proper engineering proved their worth.

    This video explains it great. Would you believe this guy has a video explaining the GHE too? lol.

  187. CD Marshall says:

    The biggest problem with Chernobyl as I understand it was the military’s demand for more power, taxing it beyond it’s safe parameters and apparently not caring or believing the consequences. They were trying to build anti-ballistic missile technology (all apparently failed?) and whatever else they were needing massive amounts of power for, the drive was greater than the welfare of the Soviet’s people.

    One technology they were researching was using Tesla’s research in electricity as a viable weapon. Apparently the energy demand was greater than the results.

    I would tell you more but that’s classified (just kidding?).

  188. boomie789 says:

    The biggest problem for Chernobyl was Communism. Lies, delusions, denial.

    They knew that reactor had the major defect that power spiked when the emergency shutdown button was hit. They just covered it up.

    Then the communist party pressured the reactor managers to fill unreasonable quotas and deadlines. The plant runners lied about completing their safety test. The same safety test that ultimately lead to the explosion.

  189. boomie789 says:

    The scene Postma is talking about at 2:25.

    The recognition in the party man’s face is A+ acting.

  190. boomie789 says:

    A new rumor I’ve heard heard about the Corona virus is that a crooked worker at the bio-research lab in china, sold the research animals to the street-market for a couple extra bucks.

  191. boomie789 says:

    I wanted to watch that guys GHE vid again.

    Look what I found in the comments

    “Prof, here you go wrong. There are only two ways to make something warmer:

    1) Via heat from warm to cold
    2) Via work

    None of the above is applicable for CO2. A colder Atmosphere cannot make a warmer surface warmer. And CO2 doesnot do work.

    In short the radiative greenhouse effect does not exist.

    The problem lies in your assumption that the Earth is -18 degrees Celsius (without the “radiative greenhouse effect”). This assumption comes from the unphysical assumption to spread the sunlight (dividing it by 4) over the entire surface of the Earth. Effectively cooling down the sun. If you dont do this. The sun is hot enough to make the climate. No “radiative greenhouse effect” needed.

    Watch this video illustrating it:
    ( that’s you!)

    And here is a good empirical analysis:

    “It doesn’t matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn’t matter how smart you are. If it doesn’t agree with experiment, it’s wrong.” Feynman.

    Ps I do really enjoy watching your videos :). Probably I am one of the few that almost watched all of them!”

    You’re making a difference

  192. Rudi K. says:

    Thanks, Philip. (Link worked)
    Interesting that previous generations of meteorologists, like George Simpson, centered their analysis around the role of clouds.
    Climate scientists still don’t understand clouds.
    So what confidence should anyone have in their models?

  193. Richard says:

    “N2 and O2 (the two largest constituents of the atmosphere) are homonuclear diatomic molecules, so they have no net magnetic dipole and thus cannot effectively emit (nor absorb) infrared, and thus cannot shed energy to space”. This quote comes from that Klimate Kooks fellow but according to Blair MacDonald in his Quantum Mechanics and Raman Spectroscopy article this is not correct, there is Raman spectroscopy by which it can be shown that N2 and O2 have IR absorbing and emitting effects.

  194. geran says:

    Richard, it’s a case of both of them being right, depending on where a person decides to stop calling it “infrared” and starts calling it “visible”. For example, Raman spectroscopy reveals that N2 can absorb/emit a 4μ photon. Is a 4μ photon considered for Earth’s thermal energy? Our eyes can’t detect 4μ, but the photon is too “hot” for natural emission from Earth. 4μ corresponds to Wien’s 451 ºC, or 844 ºF. The only places such a temperature naturally occurs are things such as forest fires, molten lava, and active volcanoes.

    IOW, “LOL’s” quote is probably better than 99.999999% correct. Not an error to be concerned about.

  195. Pablo says:

    Also from LOL:

    “If Earth had no “greenhouse gases”, then no gases could radiatively emit energy to space. Radiative emission to space is the *only* means by which the planet can shed energy. So Gavin Schmidt claiming the atmosphere sans “greenhouse gases” would be cold is, yet again, diametrically opposite to reality. In reality, the gases would heat up via conduction upon contacting the surface and convect upward… but they couldn’t emit that energy to space. The whole of the atmosphere would heat up, with a very small lapse rate.”

    The last sentence confuses me. The rate increases without water vapour.

  196. Yah mostly a good comment but the lapse rate is not about radiative gases.

  197. Rudi K. says:

    The comment from LOL is debatable. If there were no greenhouse gases (or clouds), IR emissions would travel from the surface strength through the transparent atmosphere without interacting. The flux balance would not involve the atmosphere. So, assuming no heating from absorption of inbound UV/light/IR, the fluxes would not heat the atmosphere.

    There would be conduction and convection with the result that the temperature of the atmosphere would be set by an adiabatic lapse rate from the surface.

    The atmosphere would be colder than the surface.

    Take a look at some old papers on the subject. Example: JELBRING, H. 2003. THE “GREENHOUSE EFFECT” AS A FUNCTION OF ATMOSPHERIC MASS. Energy & Environment Vol. 14.

  198. George says:

    That was an interesting exchange between LOL and Jim Masterson on WUWT. Thanks for the links, Robert!

  199. Pablo says:

    And on “radiation pressure”:

    LOL@Klimate Katastrophe Kooks commented on The Hot And Cold Of Space.

    in response to Zoe Phin:

    Why can’t the 9 heat the 8? Why can’t the 6 heat the 5? Where is the energy going? Wllis believes in backradiation. He believes HSR will emit back to its heat source to make it warmer because the block prevented its cooling. This is incompatible with a gradient. Remember, Willis only makes ideological sense […]

    Smart Rock wrote:
    “The idea that everything radiates and absorbs all the time is a bit counter-intuitive, and it’s hard to grasp without taking the time and effort to learn how it works.”

    Your wording could be less ambiguous. It leads neophytes to the conclusion that objects emit as though they’re in a 0 K ambient, and absorb as though they’re in an ∞ K ambient.

    In reality, the underlying physical mechanism which regulates emission and absorption of photons is radiation pressure. If the object has a higher potential than the ambient radiation pressure, it can emit photons into that ambient. If an object has a lower potential than the ambient radiation pressure, it can absorb photons from that ambient.

    Here’s some web pages addressing the topic:

  200. I am seeing the same sort of potential disagreement among some of you guys as I think I detected in myself, concerning some of the LOL@Klimate guy’s commentary.

    But I’m wondering whether the disagreement is arising over a confusion about what we might be thinking of as the emitting surface/mass.

    If we are talking ONLY about the atmosphere, then it seems to me that CD has a good point, in that the IR window would be wide open and all land/water “surface” emissions would go straight through to space. But what about the heated, greenhouse-gaseless atmosphere? — it would still get warmed by ground/water/air conduction/convection, right? — which would still heat the bulk of the atmosphere, but now no CO2 to radiate to space. But how warm, really would the greenhouse-gaseless, N2, O2 atmosphere get (without H2O)? [I don’t know] But wait, if no H2O, then no oceans right?, and no way for water vapor to exist in the atmosphere, yes? — with little or no water on the planetary-skin surface, then,how warm could N2, O2 alone get?

    An N2, O2 atmosphere exposed to cold space on Earth’s dark side, would still seem to be able to cool to cold space — the atmosphere would still have mass above absolute zero, and so why would it not radiate to cold space ?

    This is where things get blurry for me. This needs a proper set up and proper detailed discussion, to bring me out of the fog.

  201. boomie789 says:

    I have some mixed feelings.

    Remember what I said about child soldiers?

    How the left wants to flip the family hierarchy upside down?

    Well they can’t do it overnight, they have to go through a process of normalization.

    Is it normal to see children on television giving their opinions about geopolitics?

    No, but it’s getting there.

    Not saying that is a beautiful young woman who speaks truth, but this might be all part of the plan.

    But what do I know?

    CPAC is also funded largely by a particular group.

  202. It has been in movies for decades too…this inversion of reality presenting children as wise sages who understand what adults can’t, etc. It’s total subversion of reason, and of a people.

  203. I’ll go with dogs over children any day — they are even WISER sages than the kiddies.

    Here’s mine:

  204. boomie789 says:

    That’s a real dog. Nice.

    True undieing loyalty.
    I also like Dogs. 👍

  205. MP says:

    @ boomie789

  206. boomie789 says:

    That reminds me of a shrooms trip.

    I bet she is addicted to drugs or alcohol later in life.

    I don’t wish it on her, I just forsee it.

  207. CD Marshall says:

    That’s my brother’s favorite breed,but his wife wanted a terrier (was suppose to be her dog anyway) he’s a Wire Fox Terrier. Insane dog, fearless of anything, chases away coyotes. He has open dog door to the backyard (fenced) but they live in woods, so the dog is out chasing things all hours of the night.

    Now about my comment but KK has a point on IR. So in my mind, no GHG would not make the planet hotter but much colder. Certainly hotter in direct sunlight and without proper absorption/delfection of that energy maybe even too hot for humans to live outside at areas like the Equator. I mean just 75% of 960 W/m^2 would be (gets out calculator) 65.13C/149.29F.

    Now on the dark side I’d imagine temps would plummet. Without water how much solar energy would be immediately converted to thermal heat? It would be like living on Dune.

  208. CD Marshall says:

    Does anyone have a better of graph of this as to the actual site?

  209. boomie789 says:


    that’s hard to follow.

    Makes me think of the space blanket argument. If we block all IR we freeze, if we block of none of it, we burn. Then, in 12hr we freeze, forever.

    We are the goldilocks atmosphere, blocks just enough.

    Just rambling

  210. boomie789 says:

    I’m just rambling

  211. CD Marshall says:

    Which one is hard to follow the graph or the warming/cooling? Water vapor maintains a reduced temperature longer whereas w/o that. like in deserts, those temps would wildly fluctuate between very hot daytime to freezing nights. Now imagine a dry planet with no water? No oceans absorbing that solar energy would (I’m imagine in theory) create even hotter average surface temps and more colder nocturnal temps.

    The planet would be less hospitable to life as we know it. Many species would die off and others would thrive.

    Now imagine that if the Earth was tidally locked? One strip of the Earth between day and night side would be the perfect utopia.

  212. CD Marshall says:

    Does anyone know what happened to Pierre? I found his chemistry invaluable at times.

  213. boomie789 says:

    All that made perfect sense.

    Except the day side would evolve the creature from Tremors.

    And the night side would evolve bats the size of dragons

    While the last remnants of humanity fight a two war front for survival.

    ^Another good book idea

  214. CD Marshall says:

    Anyone know how accurate this actually is?

  215. Rudi K. says:

    Hi CDM,

    Tony Heller did a critique of the the RSS satellite data a few months back.

    As far as I know Tony has been silent on UAH, so it may be the best data around.

  216. geran says:

    There are two groups that process the satellite data. One is RSS, and the other is UAH. RSS has long been associated with the GHE pseudoscience, and their processed data runs slightly higher temperature than UAH. More and more Skeptics are becoming suspicious of UAH, however. Both Christy and Spencer are acknowledged “Lukewarmers”. Spencer has been displaying his incompetence on his blog for years, with such nonsense as “putting on a coat proves ‘cold’ can warm ‘hot'”. And then there is his ongoing censorship of the proper science….

    All that said, it is still possible that satellites could be detecting that much warmth. The ENSO waters have been much warmer than average, for about two months. There is no official El Niño, but the warmer waters are adding thermal energy to the atmopshere. And the satellites can detect it.

  217. Jopo says:

    My recollection was that RSS used the surface gridded GISS data to calibrate the lower troposphere. mmm. Using adjuted data to adjust our data. Yep seems like great science to me.

  218. Tony Heller’s videos have made me question all temp data now. For example, with respect to NOAA:

  219. Climate science seems to have become, more and more, a synthesized … “science” — synthetic models, synthetic parameters, synthetic temp data — “synthscience” — it’s not your daddy’s science anymore.

  220. Barry says:

    Morning RK. In Canada we have gotten rid of any weather stations that weren’t showing warming,I think Dr Ball said we were down to about 38 now that they use to make their claims. A so called climate scientist at environment Canada stated last year that the climate in Canada was warming twice as fast as the rest of the world. It would seem that we do indeed have the fox guarding the chicken house.

  221. geran says:

    I just checked the UAH anomaly for February, +0.76 ºC. I definitely see a correlation to ENSO. ENSO 3.4 has held fairly constant, close to +0.4 ºC.

    What Spencer doesn’t like to let out is the UAH anomaly is based on 264 K. That’s about -9 ºC (15.8 ºF). A real scientist might ask how a lower troposphere temperature of -9 ºC can warm the planet….

  222. boomie789 says:

    Naive Fool

    >Evidence? Our entire multi-day discussion is about an intro-to-climate-science model. [Basic projectile motion models]( don’t account for wind, a round Earth, the Coriolis effect, the spin of the projectile, or a host of other things. Does that mean gravity doesn’t exist?

    The evidence clearly shows the Earth is warming. If you don’t believe that, I’m happy to make a bet with you. Pick any US City for 2020: I’ll pay you $100 for every low temperature record that’s broken, you pay me $100 for every high temperature record that’s broken. If the planet is not warming, the daily high and low record-breakers are roughly even each year. If it’s warming, you’ll get more highs than lows. In Los Angeles, for example, [the number of record highs has been greater than or equal to the number of record lows]( every year since 1975.

    So yes, please, if you want to switch this discussion to evidence, I’m happy to make money off you. Let’s bet on the climate and see who wins.

    >”That intro to climate science model defies the laws of thermodynamics. There is no excuse to do that, besides to DE-LEARN students.

    Also this thermodynamicly flawed model is the basis for the greenhouse effect. (Lower energy back radiation adding to a higher energy)

    I have a better bet.

    If you can give me a bonafided experiment that verifies that model.
    (Back-radiation being added to a higher energy) I’ll give you my first born son.

    That’s the much safer bet for me.”

    Lol I think I really upset him. It’s been days.

    This guy builds satellites?

  223. CD Marshall says:

    My brain hurts arguing with this idiot I am dealing with. He actually wants me to prove in particle physics where it shows energy transferred from a photon does not automatically raise temperature.
    Like I have references to particle physics manuals.

  224. boomie789 says:


    I had one yesterday that said something like

    “No desert has more than a 40C temperature change in one night”

    Lol cmon man.

  225. Heller does do a good job to show that the warming is manufactured. Not that even if it was warming it proves anything other than natural variation entirely inside the bounds of past variations. These people are sick.

  226. CD Marshall says:

    No worries Joseph, we still have mo more than 3400 hundred years to go ’till the next ice age.

  227. Rudi K. says:

    1975 is not an appropriate start year for an analysis of long term trends.
    (New Ice Age scare and all that)
    Bet on an 1875 start date and insist on raw (actual) climate station data.
    Then demolish your adversary with Tony Heller’s charts!

  228. George says:


    the article on PSI by Antero Ollila, that you have commented on, was very disappointing! He obviously has an extremely poor understanding of thermodynamics! I am a layman but can understand the basic fact that heat travels hot to cold and the garbage that a photon from a cooler object gets absorbed and makes a warmer object warmer still is mumbo jumbo!! How supposedly smart people can get sucked in by such pseudoscience is simply amazing. I wish PSI would do a better job screening their authors. They aren’t doing themselves any favors by posting that garbage.

  229. CD Marshall says:

    George, this is from a guy who made millions off or IR devices after explaining to him thermodynamics with many text references”

    So you are now saying that energy can’t heat up anything? WOW.

    They LITERALLY measure the ENERGY radiating back down to earth.

    What do you think this ENERGY is doing?

    Oh – sorry… I get it now – you are saying this is a special type energy that doesn’t actually do any work.

  230. CD Marshall says:

    Sorry comment got garbled.

  231. geran says:

    George, my interpretation of PSI is that they do not to want to censor any aspect of science. They will freely allow a post from a Warmist. It appears they are trying to avoid the censorship that we see from Warmists and Lukewarmers.

    The only one I’ve ever seen get censored was the infamous heat creep.

  232. boomie789 says:

    Lol ty Rudy.

    I don’t even like the slight chance he could get lucky.

    My bet is a sure thing. If he accepts it he would have to find a perpetual motion machine.

    Then he would be a trillionair and probably forget about my son. Lol.

  233. boomie789 says:

    Rudi sorry

  234. CD wrote:
    My brain hurts arguing with this idiot I am dealing with. He actually wants me to prove in particle physics where it shows energy transferred from a photon does not automatically raise temperature.
    Like I have references to particle physics manuals.

    Remember the LOL@Klimate Katastrope Kooks guy? — Particle physics seems to be his specialty (I think I might have figured out who he is, but I won’t say, except to say that he IS a physicist, if he is who I think). I bet he could demolish your fool.

    I’m thinking that energy CANNOT be transferred from a photon, IF the photon comes from a cooler body towards a hotter body. The energy transfer would ONLY happen if the photon was coming from hot to cold.

    The person you are dealing with seems to have the foregone conclusion that a photon always transfers its energy. And he is trying to trick you into believing this already foregone conclusion in demanding that you use his foregone conclusion in your proof.

    I don’t think that the TRANSFER even happens.

    Ask him to prove that a photon from a cooler object CAN transfer its energy to a warmer object, let alone “automatically” raise its temperature. Ask him to start baking a turkey with one photon from an ice cube.

    Temperature difference, to begin with, dictates the possibility of energy transfer and the raising of temperature. This does not involve JUST ONE PHOTON — it involves a group of photons, acting in some sort of unison, does it not?

  235. Joseph E Postma says:

    We always get the question “How does a photon know not to cause heating/be absorbed/etc.”

    It’s such a dumb question! How does ANYTHING “know to do” ANYTHING?

    There is actually a reason why: Mathematics, that’s why.

    Because a lower-frequency energy cannot increase the frequency of a higher-frequency energy, and temperature is all about frequency populations. Higher frequency has something that lower frequency does not, and hence can give to lower frequency. Lower frequency has nothing that higher frequency already has, hence has nothing to give to higher frequency.

    There is an amazing amount of mathematics, called statistical mechanics, which goes into analyzing and developing all this. It is all just pure math, and literally is about the behaviour of numbers…of huge numbers in particular.

    It all settles out into some incredibly simple formulas though, given the underlying incredible complexity. Heat flows one way, and it is about frequency population states being shared to something else that doesn’t have those populations. Underlying it all is a very mechanical process though, and when you understand it for what it is physically, in terms of population states and how these can be shared between objects, then of course we understand that heat flow is one way in ANY transfer mode of course including radiation.

  236. Joseph E Postma says:

    Hence…why adding ice cubes together does not increase their temperature. They don’t even understand the relevance and importance of this.

  237. How does a photon know not to cause heating/be absorbed/etc.

    ANSWER: Photons don’t know shit. Rather, it is us humans who know when our constructs maintain their integrity, and this integrity, expressed in thermodynamic laws of the macro-world, insists that a photon had better damn well know it cannot just go any old way it wants, acting out its individual identity, expressing itself as a single, defined entity above all other considerations, but must, as with laws that govern collective human actions, obey the law.

    Same with gravity — how does gravity “know” to act in such a way that a lager mass attracts the smaller mass more, and not the other way around ?

    How do ocean waves “know” to crest ?

    How does sunlight know to illuminate the half sphere of Earth, rather than wrapping itself around the whole sphere all at once?

    This stupid allocation of human sentience to a single photon clearly shows that the people trying to express science are, in fact, expressing infantile story lines.

    To those folks, I offer this: a photon knows, because the tooth fairly said so, or because the Easter bunny doesn’t like it when hims gows toos the hot object, or Santa will put that photon on the “naughty” list.

  238. Infantile anthropomorphisms, exactly! Hence flat Earth theory in modern physics since photons don’t know not to average over the entire surface at once.

    It’s all infantile science…totally rationally and intellectually infantile!!!!

  239. “fairly” = “fairy” (^_^) … suddenly his valiant attempt at wit collapsed.

  240. “lager mass” = “larger mass”
    Although, sometimes I could use a mass of lager, after reading some of the alarmists fantasies that I read.

  241. MP says:

    Maybe a hot plate analysis works better to convince open minded AGW believers, instead of an ice cube.

    The max heating potential of a black met plate with a radiating heat source of 300 degree Celcius at the distance to the plate is 300 degree celcius.

    When the plate reaches 300 degree celcius, in equilibrium with the heat source. And you put a second 300 degree heater next to it the max temperature of the plate is still 300 degree celcius.

    Ask the AGW believer what happens to the photons of the second heater that hit the metal plate.

    He must acknowledge that some form of scattering happens (not direct reflection) like described in the Thomson scattering where low frequency photons gets scattered when the potential photon energy is much less then the mass energy (derived from e=mc2) of the receiving particle

    Or like the Compton scattering, the scattering of a photon by a charged particle, usually an electron

    And if he acknowledges that excited electron scattering happens to the photons . Then he must agree that fluxes can’t be added. And that back radiation is an invalid way to determin slowed cooling, because there is not only absorption, there is also scattering, and sometimes passing through of the photon without changing the internal state.

  242. boomie789 says:


    Then they would probably switch to “slowed cooling” which has nothing to do with the greenhouse effect.

    Then once you tell them the model does not demonstrate “slowed cooling” it demonstrates recycling heat, you go into the “learning tool” argument.

    Then you just go round in round in circles trying to prove to them they don’t understand thermodynamics. Fun!

    O wait you said OPEN MINDED. Nvm lol

  243. boomie789 says:

    O wait you lumped in slowed cooling.

    So skip to the “learning tool” argument then having to teach thermodynamics to a zealot.

  244. MP says:

    @ boomie789

    Yeah, it also disproves their slowed cooling is the same as direct heating in a reversed way hypothesis. For that to be true there must be a hypothetical flat earth where there is always photon absorbing with internal state changes.

  245. boomie789 says:

    Do alarmist admit that if their model was true, perpetual motion machines would be possible?

    I’ve tried it twice and they just flat out deny it, even though that’s what their math said.

    I think it’s an excellent point to bring up.

  246. We should be able to create steam powered mechanical cycles using their GHE with less input than is required to boil water. The GHE should be able to get water to boil without providing the heat input that would be required outside of the GHE device. Hey shite I can draw a nice diagram of that! Stay tuned.

  247. boomie789 says:

    right, I think you could just use the warm waste water of a dishwasher to get it started and you get free energy!

    The warm water goes in machine
    GHE doubles the heat of the water, using the energy of the water.
    Water boils and powers turbine
    turbine powers dishwasher


  248. MP says:

    @ Joseph E Postma

    Do it on a earth atmosphere level scale, or else they claim (again) that it doesn’t work because of the optical distance.

  249. “Optical distance” they say that!!!???? OMFG!

  250. CD Marshall says:

    Does the have anything to do with what what I’m looking for? My headache continues.

    I’m actually looking for the laws or rules that apply to photon absorption compatibility {and/or transfer of said photon with no temperature increase}.

  251. CD Marshall says:

    Sorry “photoelectric effect” was between “Does the” and “have”.

    Does the “photoelectric effect” have anything to do with what what I’m looking for?

  252. CD Marshall says:

    So the resonant frequency of the photon has to be compatibility with the object to be absorbed and that is based on vibration which excited by temperature.

    So if this is right what are the standard rules, laws and/or equations that follow this?

  253. MP says:

    @ CD Marshall

    There are many experiments and names attached to it

    It all comes down to

    – photon absorption and the internal state increases.
    – photon absorption, and equal scattering , no internal state change (elastic scattering)
    – photon absorption and a part given to the internal state, and a low frequency (longer wave) photon goes out (positive ineleastic scattering)
    – photon absorption and a part given to the internal scattered photon, making the internal state lower and the photen a higher state (shorter wave).

    Besides that we know that certain photons pass through certain objects without changing the internal state of the molecules.

    …with this mix of interactions it is inpossible to defend the reverse cooling is the same as direct heating in a eversed way hypothesis.

  254. boomie789 says:

    ^ patiently waiting for Postma’s GHE perpetual motion machine.

    Maybe it could make a good video topic? Like the magnifying glass one.

  255. CD Marshall says:

    Thanks MP for adding to my headache, my OCD will kick in until I can cohesively understand and explain this, I also did not consider distance to be a factor. EM is such weak energy it makes me think mostly all would be reflected from atmosphere to surface (without doing equations yet to support this).

    Unless that is not a factor as it is a photon. Unless I am wrong (knock on many failed equations) a Solar photon reaching Pluto would not have the same effect as reaching Earth.

  256. MP says:

    @ CD Marshall

    To make it even more complicated. In an eleastic scattering situation. When a photon gets in and an equal energy photon gets out, also an equal energy electron can get out.

    Sometimes A happens, sometimnes, B. But there is always conservation of energy.

    And to directly answer your question. Yea distance to the heat source matters. That is why i said 300 degree radiating radiative at the distance to the black metal plate.

    The effective temperature of the sun is around 5k kelvin, the potential heating of the sun is around 116 degree Celcius (at the moon daylight side)

  257. CD Marshall says:

    Thanks again MP, off to study scattering theory and what not.

  258. MP says:

    CD Marshal

    Always make sure to say it is not normal reflective scattering. Or else the Marxist will mix the terms and claim you mean another form of scattering.

  259. boomie789 says:

    Marxism and climate alarm are a match made in hell.

  260. I guess you could really throw those who ask about what photons … “know” … by telling them that you do not believe in photons, per se — they are just a choice of verbal construct to describe hazy aspects of a greater encompassing law.

    A “photon” probably can be thought of as being nowhere at no time or as being everywhere all the time, and so it either “knows” nothing and we have to say what it does, or it “knows” everything and we have to let it do what it does within our broader descriptions founded on consistent observations.

    It would be fun to see the reactions to that. (^_^)

  261. boomie789 says:

    Naive Fool
    >You’re really hung up on that misinterpretation of the model.

    Could you show me what you think actually happens when CO2 slows down the escape rate of infrared radiation? Like in the experiment with the alkaselzter bottles. Just draw it out for me.

    I notice you haven’t once proposed an alternative. I suspect it’s because it’s easier to put forth a misunderstanding than a “correct” model.

    >”The whole post is about Postma’s alternative model, have you forgotten?

    Around 1000w/m2 comes in at the equator, Heat flow propagates through the system through water vapor. Those are the main components of our climate.

    Not magic C02 which you guys think is the end all be all of our climate, when in reality it plays the tiniest of parts.

    C02 does jack shit, it’s less than 1% of the atmosphere.”

  262. boomie789 says:

    Shit, I should have said it will have a cooling effect, just like the space blanket.

    C02 will. Or any IR reflector you wrap around earth.

  263. Rudi K. says:

    No matter what the distance, a photon has an energy determined only by its frequency.
    The distance r determines the geometry and so the number of photons that arrive at the receptor.
    Thus, the energy flux (energy per unit area per unit time) at the receptor depends on both the distance and the orientation of the receptor, via the fraction of the solid angle around the emitting surface that it subtends.
    So flux per unit area (i.e. photon number per second x photon energy) drops off as 1/r^2 and also has a Cos[theta] dependence determined by orientation.
    Hope this helps

  264. jopo says:

    There was some chat earlier about the FLIR IR camera.
    I actually have my own cheapy $800Au unit and access in my work vehicle to the $20K FLUKE unit.

    So yesterday pointing the Flir unit directly up to the zenith at around 11 AM it conveniently was clear sky. the measurement of the FLIR was -2’C (could have been 2’C)

    This afternoon at around 5PM same spot and pointing up to the zenith but using the $20k Fluke. Coincidently it was a clear sky. The temp was 2’c.

    So the range being from -2C to +2C. Note herer in Darwin Aus it is over 30’c at time of measurement.

    What am i measuring here. Return Photons? I need a lot of help here with photons.

  265. Rudi K. says:


    An FLIR camera detects photon fluxes at IR frequencies in the 3 to 12 micro metre IR range [see Wiki on FLIR]. The measured fluxes in this waveband (numbers of photons per second per unit area) can be converted to the implied temperature of their source using the Planck black body radiation curve. If you point an IR camera at the sky, the photons will mostly come from water vapour (or water droplets) at various altitudes, so the temperatures “measured” are for an average altitude.

    A key question running through this post is whether such IR photon fluxes from a cold object can transfer heat to a warmer one.

    About 10 years ago a couple of German physicists looked at the foundations of “back radiation” climatology theory and concluded that it was inconsistent with the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Their paper [1] was published in the peer reviewed IJMP and is available for all to read on the arXiv.

    Perhaps someone should make “Physicists vs climatologists – the movie”.

    [1] G. Gerlich and R. D. Tscheuschner. Falsification of the atmospheric co 2 greenhouse effects within the frame of physics. International Journal of Modern Physics B, 23(03):275–364, 2009. [arXiv:0707.1161]

  266. Gerlich and Tscheuschner were brutally attacked by the whole “greenhouse theory” establishment, most of whom claim that these two were totally debunked, which, of course, in my analysis, is complete bull.

    Here was my take on it:

    Of course, since then (2012 – eight years ago), my certainty about the legitimacy of these two authors’ claims and my certainty about the falsehood of the “greenhouse effect” have crystallized.

    Accusing experienced mathematical physicists of not understanding the basics is such a joke.

  267. boomie789 says:

    Alkaselter in a 2 liter.

    Naive Fool keeps asking me about this science fair experiment. From what I know, I say it’s pressure making the difference here.

    Would like a second opinion.

  268. boomie789 says:

    Wow, schools are ruined.

  269. CD Marshall says:

    Yes Boomie, that experiment proves PV=nRT another thing politcal science wants to remove since it interferes with their greenhouse theory. This is a great reference…

  270. CD Marshall says:

    Never forget how a gas reacts under pressure…

  271. CD Marshall says:

    the track is off a little on this one for some reason?

  272. geran says:

    “Alkaselter in a 2 liter.”

    boomie, that’s just another one of their tricks. There are a lot of things going on there, including the fact that a glass or plastic bottle is opaque to infrared.

    You never know if clowns like that are dishonest or just incompetent.

  273. CD Marshall says:

    @Rudi K. @MP Thanks for the photon help and any others wanting to add to it.

  274. CD Marshall says:

    Debunked in GH theory means they didn’t like the answer.

  275. CD Marshall says:

    Naomi is live right now, a smart girl and has some science background.

  276. boomie789 says:


    Ikr? Is that guy a shill, or just a shitty scientists?


    Right, I knew. They just tell falsehoods so boldly to your face.

  277. CD Marshall says:

    They are also masters of confusion, the most dishonest people on the planet. I love the one where they repeat back what you said and then later claim you said something you didn’t.

  278. boomie789 says:

    Strawman! What that logical fallacy is. They need to be brought to court. It’s so obvious.

  279. boomie789 says:

  280. CD Marshall says:

    To all,

    So in my photon meanderings, the surface of Venus is hotter than the few photons that reach it could change so would solar photons still be absorbed on such a hot surface? If not, how would reflection work and if it did would that even alter the temperature at all?

    Potholer’s trolls are piling on me again (using the Venus poster child for RAGHGE) or as I call them, Pottrolls (you know, like a garden gnome). One comment stuck out so where can I find the absorption bands and reflection of the gases of the Venus atmosphere.

  281. The surface is Venus is hot due to 90X atmosphere and 90X more adiabatic gradient. Ninety times the atmosphere!

  282. boomie789 says:

    I wonder what would happen to the surface of Venus if the sun turned off? Venus has it’s own power? Venus is bubbling with geothermal activity on it’s surface. Does the sun matter to a volcano planet?

    If I’m following, it seems you are trying to add cold to hot. Which I’m starting to understand NEVER happens ever.

    Jupiter probably wouldn’t be effected much at all. Ignoring gravity and orbit.

    Iirc, the photo has been colourised to match the sulphur atmosphere, but the original photo is black/white.

    Considering the atmosphere is more dense than styrofoam and 900 degrees it lasted a pretty impressively long time. The surface of Venus has atmospheric pressure equal to 3000 feet below the surface of the ocean on Earth.

    lol Styrofoam floats on Venus.

  283. boomie789 says:

    Venus is really close to the sun though…idk.

  284. CD Marshall says:

    Yes the atmosphere but other factors work in that or from it, right? Such as the geothermal. Was the atmosphere always so dense? Did sunlight ever reach it?

    Something at one point caused the catalyst that is Venus now. I’ve heard some excellent theories.
    Gravity, like Saturn and Jupiter, didn’t cause Venus.

  285. boomie789 says:

    Jeez. Reflects 70% of sunlight, but also runaway heating. It’s everywhere.

  286. If I could train a puppy dog to deliver this speech, then I would, but given that physical impossibility, she will have to do:

  287. boomie789 says:

    @ Robert Kernodle

  288. CD Marshall says:

    Yeah the sunlight reflection is variable on time of observation and orbit so I have gathered. Volcanic activity pumps more sulfuric acid into the atmosphere which blocks even more sunlight. I would love for Sir Joseph the Wise to do a video on Venus or a post or maybe write a paper. Now that’s not a bad idea (like he isn’t busy enough). Venus based on all current scientific observations and information from an Astrophysicist using physics, how could they not consider it if submitted to the right journal?

    I would not even state greenhouse effect in the paper. I would just extrapolate the physics, evidence and conclusion based on the physics and math. let them fill in the gaps as they see fit. A foot in the door as it were is better than left out in the cold completely. You have authored and co-authored plenty of papers so it would not seem unusual in this field.

  289. boomie789 says:

    All hail Sir Joseph the Wise!
    Slayer of the GHE dragon!
    Friend of the scientific method!
    Savior of Climate science!

    Hip hip, hurray!

    lol to much?

  290. CD Marshall says:

    @Robert Kernodle Yeah but unlike Greta who quit school, Naomi is pursuing science. Hopefully she goes for a PhD in what I am still trying to find out?

    If I had to do it all over again I think I’d start in Geology then see where that would lead. I was interested in geology, weather, climate, space, oceanography and ancient history. Clearly studying physics is essential to all fields of science and I am amazed that is not stressed more.

  291. CD Marshall says:

    @boomie789 Excellent!

  292. Haha it’s great boomie…new post in a few days.

  293. boomie789,

    At first, I thought your rim-shod gif said, “Ba dumb ass”. (^_^)

    … guess I was thinking about people who rage about CO2 climate doom.

    My reference to puppy dogs was a reference to figures that have the most emotional appeal. I think puppies are first, followed by children or young people. Climate catastrophists are using child Greta, for example.

  294. boomie789 says:

    Robert Kernodle,

    I know, I was just trying to express apprehension and delight in one gif.

    Like, “I’m standoffish but intrigued” look. Maybe I”m just being paranoid and there is nothing to worry about.

  295. MP says:

    The revealings of Yuri Bezmenov (defected high level kgb agent, specialiced in subversion) should be mandatory teachings.

  296. boomie789 says:


    Agreed, I’ve watched everything of him.
    The KGB is smarter than you think.

  297. boomie789 says:

    Should skip to the right part, I like this song.

  298. boomie789 says:

    55 seconds

  299. boomie789 says:

    No pressure difference in this one…
    I don’t know what it could be? Dishonesty?

  300. Don’t forget that simply showing that CO2 absorbs IR is not the GHE.

  301. boomie789 says:

    I’m confused. If the contents of the bottle is 96% c02 4%water vapor at 1 bar pressure vs and identical bottle with normal air.

    Lets say that heat lamp is 1000w/m^2

    The c02 in the bottle is absorbing more IR through the volume of the bottle retaining more IR? Allowing more efficient heat exchange in the “atmosphere” of the bottle?

    The bottle would have even better heat exchange if the inside of the bottle was 15% or higher water vapor?

    I’m still confused. Is there something I can watch? Whats the quick answer and I’ll figure the rest out.

  302. boomie789 says:

    “showing that CO2 absorbs IR is not the GHE.”

    I guess that would be the short answer, hmmm…

  303. boomie789 says:

    This is what i was thinking, not a higher temperature. The same or even a bit lower.

    “Be very careful to locate the jars in identical situations and make sure sunlight does not directly strike the thermometers. If there is any significant discrepancy, new items may have to be obtained. Once you are satisfied that they heat at the same rate, take them back out of the sunlight, uncover and fill one jar from your CO2 source. Close both jars, wait for equilibrium (CO2 from a compressed source is very cold) and place back in the same sunlit location as before. Watch and plot the temperature rise in both, until the thermometers stop rising.

    Repeat the experiment several times, swapping around bottles, thermometers and CO2, to make absolutely sure no other discrepancies creep in.

    I repeated this experiment with various combinations of jar, thermometer and CO2 and got the same results each time.

    I am confident that you will discover, as I did, that the jar with the CO2 does NOT shoot way up in comparison to the one with air, as it is purported to do in those YouTube demonstrations. In fact, I found that it actually lagged behind by about 1/2 degree. I have seen other on line experimenters get the same results. But don’t take my word for it- do the experiment yourself!

    That’s what true science is about. Repeatable experiments, NOT computer models, based on assumptions. Anyone who is interested in delving into the physics in greater detail would do well to study the Laws of Thermodynamics to understand that the ‘greenhouse effect’ cannot produce runaway heat buildup.”

  304. So, is that video supposed to imply that Earth’s planetary skin (ground/water) is encased in plastic? — where the CO2 concentration is as high as a closed plastic bottle, where, I suppose, the oceans are dissolving huge Alkazetltzer tablets? — where no convection currents of any magnitude exist?

    Hey, I’ve got an idea to demonstrate how muddled the brains of these sorts of people are:

    Set up two food processors — each contains a whole boiled potato. Now turn on one of the food processor, while leaving the other one turned off. Note that the turned-on processor completely pulverizes the potato, while the turned-off processor maintains the complete integrity of the potato.
    This proves that the electrical firing of neurons in alarmist minds cause pulverized brains, while the minds of rational minds remain calmly plugged into the source of facts.

  305. CD Marshall says:

    PSI had an excellent debunking article on all those ridiculous high school experiments I can’t find it though. Someone should have it?

  306. boomie789 says:

    @ CD Marshal this one right? I Linked it a bit earlier.

    Shout out to Rosco
    January 18, 2018 at 12:08 am

    “This is so silly I can’t believe it !

    Robert E Murohy is obviously a completely indoctrinated alarmist and scientifically illerate !

    People who support any of these “experiments” are lacking any credibility.

    As “Bill Nye’s” thermometers are directly heated by the lamps this demonstrates that CO2 is a better insulator than air – nothing else !!!!!

    A better insulator has NO powerful radiating ability – if it did it would be a better conductor !

    This video is fraud – here’s proof using established facts and correct science :-

    Air has a specific heat at constant pressure of 1.01 J/g K.

    CO2 has a specific heat at constant pressure of 0.844 J/g K.

    Air has a thermal conductivity of 0.024 W/mK @ 25°C.

    CO2 has a thermal conductivity of 0.0146 W/mK @ 25°C.

    Air has an average molecular mass of 28.966 g\mole.

    CO2 has an average molecular mass of 44.01 g\mole.

    Based on these well established empirically measured results, and the relationship established by Avogadro, one expects that to increase the temperature of one mole of air by 1°C requires:-

    Q = m x c x deltaT = 28.966 x 1.01 x 1°C = 29.25566 J.

    For CO2 :-

    Q = m x c x deltaT = 44.01 x 0.844 x 1°C = 37.14444 J

    If the volume and pressure of the two jars is truly equal then the air has a mass of ~28.966 g per litre and CO2 ~44.01 g per litre.

    Thus, unless the decades (centuries ?) of empirical measurement of physical and chemical properties are completely wrong equal volumes of CO2 and air at the same pressure heat at different rates with CO2 requiring 37.14444/29.25566 = 127% more energy.


    What is demonstrated is that CO2 is a better INSULATOR and this is obvious from well established measurements. It has no powerful radiative capacity at all !

    Before people make the idiotic assertion that radiation and conductivity are different put your brain in gear and recognise that the empirical results must include a radiative component – IF CO2 radiates IR it does so during the test !

    If IR radiation is an additional method (as well as conduction) for CO2 to transmit energy it should be a better conductor – IT ISN’T !”

    I think that answers everything.

  307. CD Marshall says:

    No but it works especially with Rosco’s comment.

  308. Rudi K. says:

    you asked, “where can I find the absorption bands and reflection of the gases of the Venus atmosphere?”

    The Planck curves for Earth, Mars and Venus are shown in [1]. The paper is a mixture of interesting observational data and questionable theory.

    A comparison of the three Planck curves shows that they are all quite similar in profile around the CO2 absorption band, even though Earth has 400 pmm CO2, while Mars and Venus have 95% CO2, all with very different pressures (as noted by Joe). This nicely demonstrates how the CO2 effect on IR emissions from Earth is already close to saturated.

    The variations between average surface temperatures can be explained by adiabatic gradients (as noted by Joe). The adiabatic analysis of Venus and Mars already appears in the literature, for example in [2], [3], although the jokers curating the Wiki pages on the subject are oblivious to this.

    [1] R. T. Pierrehumbert. Infrared radiation and planetary temperature. In AIP Conference Proceedings, volume 1401, pages 232–244. AIP, 2011.

    [2] H. Jelbring. The “greenhouse effect” as a function of atmospheric mass. Energy & environment, 14(2- 3):351–356, 2003.

    [3] W. Brune. Gravitation and gas laws: An alternative approach to climatology. Energy & environment, 20(7):1141–1147, 2009.

  309. Jopo says:

    Well I just come across something that is interesting in that Alarmist and the elite AMS claim that the SUN cannot affect weather.

    I am like most here discussing with morons on how they do not recognise the SUN as a legitimate forcing. The general response from the MORONS is of course the SUN creates weather. It is just that I (me) am not looking at the big picture! Whatever that means?

    So they do believe the SUN creates weather. Just not climate! In the snips below this is how the Number 1 go to resource for Flat Earthers states about Climate and Weather. And shock the Sun gets a mention

    Weather is Climate. The contradictions are never ending.

    This is from Wiki
    I asked “What is the relevance of the energy budget” using duckduckgo.

    The first return was obviously a Wiki Link. So clicked it and this is the follow on. I am sure embedded in this alone is enough to throw wiki back at them.

  310. boomie789 says:

    Naive Fool

    “Well, at least I agree with this part:

    >don’t take my word for it- do the experiment yourself!

    I suggest you take his advice. It’s a little better than copy-pasting. You might learn something!

    >That’s what true science is about. Repeatable experiments,

    Agreed. [The experiment was first performed in 1856](! Literally thousands of kids do this in science fairs every year. Many on film. All with the same results. [And when it’s done with expensive, precise equipment, you still get the same results]( 170 years of doing the experiment with the same result — so he seems to be the odd one out. And why couldn’t he film it? Someone who overturns this experiment would get a Nobel Prize and millions of dollars. Why hasn’t he cashed in?!

    It’s because his little blog post is bullshit. And you’re gullible for believing it.”


    “Very hypocritical.

    First of all, you sent me that experiment and didn’t even notice the pressure difference, and I’m gullible?

    Second! No you wouldn’t get a nobel prize for disproving a science fair experiment.

    And thirdly proving that CO2 absorbs IR is not the greenhouse effect!

    You can’t prove the greenhouse effect.

    Let me tell you how your greenhouse effect free energy machine would work.

    you could just use the warm waste water of a dishwasher to get it started and you get free energy!

    The warm water goes in machine
    GHE doubles the heat of the water, using the energy of the water.
    Water boils and powers turbine
    turbine powers dishwasher

    This is what the alarmist model demonstrates! Now find that experiment.”

    Almost a week argueing with this guy

  311. geran says:

    The second Alka-Seltzer/glass bottles trick that boomer found is not much different than the first. But, we get more info.

    The trick was performed by clown Greg Stauffer. I couldn’t find out much about him, but here is his statement about his trick: ”This is a science demonstration that we did with the kids New Years Eve demonstrating how atmospheres with carbon dioxide absorb more infrared radiation and the associated increase with temperature.”

    Note the “science demonstration”, “demonstrating how atmospheres with carbon dioxide absorb more infrared radiation and the associated increase with temperature.

    He is definitely trying to fool the kids. He is trying to say this demonstration is how Earth’s atmosphere works.

    The 125 W bulb emits a lot more flux than Earth’s surface. The deception begins.

    The clown is confusing Earth’s surface emission with solar emission (represented by his heat lamp). Earth emits based on an average 288K. A 125 W “heat lamp” emits based on 2700 K. The clown is heating the “atmosphere” with an “Earth surface” of 2700 K (2427 ºC, 4401 ºF)! The deception continues.

    Next, he’s “trapping” the infrared in the glass. Glass does not pass long wavelengths, but passes shorter wavelengths. The heat lamp emits at the higher frequencies CO2 can absorb, but the CO2 cannot emit its 15 μ back through the glass. Glass does not pass low frequency infrared.

    All the clown has demonstrated is that a car, with the glass windows rolled up in sunlight, will get very hot. That’s not how Earth handles energy. Earth is not in a glass bottle. He deceives many children.

  312. boomie789 says:


    RIGHT! The heat lamp is the earth, in their crazy world.

    I’m almost there if I could understand the differences in this experiment and the one with the heatlamp.

    “Next, he’s “trapping” the infrared in the glass. Glass does not pass long wavelengths, but passes shorter wavelengths. The heat lamp emits at the higher frequencies CO2 can absorb, but the CO2 cannot emit its 15 μ back through the glass. Glass does not pass low frequency infrared.”

    “All the clown has demonstrated is that a car, with the glass windows rolled up in sunlight, will get very hot. That’s not how Earth handles energy. Earth is not in a glass bottle.”

    In the sunlight experiment, the sun gives off long wavelengths that get blocked by the glass.
    The C02 absorbs little to no IR, having a cooling insulating effect.

    In the heat lamp experiment, the c02 gets pumped with IR,…then…

    *reads rosco’s comment again*

    I’m having a hard time putting all this together

  313. boomie789 says:

    skips to the right part, just the end.

    It took Mythbusters 10.5x the highest CO2 concentration the Earth could ever reach, combined with a scorching 1570 footcandle moth killing stage lamp to get a poorly designed experiment to reach a 1.0ºC temperature increase. Even if we don’t use the marginal temperature differential of 1.0ºC, and use the entire temperature increase of 20.4ºC to 24.8ºC, the IPCC estimates still look unreasonable. Once again, Mythbusters used 10.5x the highest concentration CO2 could ever reach on earth, 8x the current level of methane combined with a 1,570 footcandle heat lamp you could bake a pizza with to achieve a 4.4ºC temperature increase. Those conditions aren’t even possible to reach on Earth, and the worst case scenario barely exceeded the IPCC’s top estimate. In reality, what the Mythbusters did was demonstrate the concept behind an Easy- Bake Oven, not the GHG effect. Note the “Bakes With 2 Ordinary Electric Light Bulbs” explanation below the name.

  314. boomie789 says:


  315. boomie789 says:

    Found a good read to share, pretty sure I’ve seen this guy here.

    Stephen Wilde

    The Earth is known as the watery planet with 71% of the surface covered by water and in many places to a substantial depth. That water is also (in addition to the atmosphere) involved in maintaining the Earth’s temperature at a higher level than it otherwise would be.

    Importantly both the atmosphere AND the oceans delay the incoming solar heat from being radiated out to space. Neither ADD new heat, both receive and store heat from the sun before it leaves the planet again. In both cases water whether in atmosphere or ocean is by far the main component in delaying the passage of heat back to space. In the atmosphere water vapour dwarfs CO2 and anything else as the main greenhouse gas. The oceans are, again, water but in a far denser form. Heat from the oceans has to be processed through the atmosphere before it can leave the planet.

    Now, consider the respective heat storing capacities of water vapour in the atmosphere and the water in all those oceans.

    The truth is that those oceans by virtue of the density and volume of the water have a heat storage capacity many magnitudes the size of the heat that can be stored by the atmosphere through the greenhouse effect. My contention is that man made CO2 and other man made trace gases are not only a miniscule proportion of the naturally occurring CO2 and trace gases but in turn CO2 and other trace gases have only a miniscule proportion of the heat storing capacity of the water vapour in the atmosphere AND ADDITIONALLY the atmosphere stores only a miniscule proportion of the heat stored by the oceans. The heat stored by the atmospheric greenhouse effect is far less in quantity and far less long lasting than the heat stored by the oceans.

    Man made CO2 is but a tiny part of a tiny part of a tiny part of the whole.

    So why do we only ever hear about the heat retaining properties of the atmosphere when the true cause of the Earth having the atmospheric temperature it has is not the atmosphere at all but the oceans?

    The truth may well that the atmospheric greenhouse effect is minimal and quickly reduced by convection, condensation into clouds and rainfall and the real thermostat is the oceans.

    Regardless of the existence of a heat retaining capacity in the atmosphere there is nevertheless always a net outward flow from surface to space and that will always be so. Greenhouse warming of the atmosphere can only ever be on the basis of a slowing down of the net heat flow from surface to space. The heat always gets out given a little time for the greenhouse style bouncing back and forth between the surface and the molecules of the atmosphere.

    It is bizarre to suggest that a significant net slowdown of heat loss in the face of the compensating negative forcings of increased convection and the increased outward radiative flow caused by a greater surface to space differential could be induced by mankind’s tiny contribution to the CO2 in the atmosphere.

    After all CO2 is itself only a tiny portion of total greenhouse gases so that it cannot have any significant long term effect when the water vapour primarily affecting atmospheric heat retention is in turn itself but a tiny proportion of global heat retaining capacity when one adds in the vastly greater oceanic heat retaining effect.

    For one thing the two negative forcings cancel out much or most of the additional warming from the atmospheric CO2 and for another the atmospheric warming effect is miniscule in relation to the oceanic warming effect. The significance of the atmospheric greenhouse effect seems to have been grossly overstated by ignoring the negative convective and radiative factors and leaving the oceans out of the equation.

    I know many clever scientists have produced figures calculating the heat budget of the atmospheric greenhouse effect but the value to be fixed to the convective process as a negative forcing has not been adequately quantified as far as I know. In any event what significance can calculations limited to the atmospheric effect have in the real world where the oceanic effect is so much greater?

    I’m pretty sure he is describing Postma’s model.

  316. Philip Mulholland says:


    Check the date of Stephen’s work.
    Wednesday, June 25th 2008, 3:29 PM EDT
    Stephen has been working this for a long time.

    See also our recent publication:
    An Iterative Mathematical Climate Model of the Atmosphere of Titan

  317. boomie789 says:

    @Philip Mulholland

    hmmm…looks familiar.

    Ill add you guys to my bookmarks!

  318. Stephen Wilde says:

    Hi Boomie,

    Lots more here:

    and it is not Joe’s model.

  319. Philip Mulholland says:

    Thanks Boomie.

    See also my Research Gate project which reports the results of our collaboration.

  320. boomie789 says:

    @Stephen Wilde

    You would do well to produce a video with some animations describing your “New Climate Model”

    Or accompanying images with your step by step breakdown. I don’t really know what a lot of that means, having a hard time painting the picture. it’s a complex picture.

    Unless more CO2 from human sources could increase total atmospheric density it could not have a significant effect on global tropospheric temperature. Instead, the speed of the hydrological cycle changes to a miniscule extent in order to maintain sea surface and surface air temperature equilibrium. A change limited to the air alone short of an increase in total atmospheric density and pressure is incapable of altering that underlying equilibrium because the oceans are dominant. The amount of energy that a planetary atmosphere can retain is set only by atmospheric mass, the strength of the gravitational field and Top of Atmosphere insolation. All compositional variations only result in a change in the global air circulation such as is necessary to keep the Top of Atmosphere energy balance stable. Otherwise the atmosphere would be lost.

    godspeed, Wilde

  321. MP says:

    @ Stephen Wilde

    In the debate with Professor Rancourt you did a great job in challenging him on a quantom level.That is the key to succes. A macro level theoretical replacement would be nice, but we first need to break the brainwashed mental conditioning of the normies

  322. geran says:

    boomie, are you “having a hard time putting all this together”?

    “All the clown has demonstrated is that a car, with the glass windows rolled up in sunlight, will get very hot. That’s not how Earth handles energy. Earth is not in a glass bottle.”

    Maybe you can include one of your childish graphics. That might help you to put it together….

  323. CD Marshall says:

    I’m presenting your take on Venus to Potholer when it comes around, at least I’m going to link it in my comments. So no pressure. PH has never personally addressed you which I find very amusing.
    Believe me I have tried. His trolls respond and I goad them to challenge PH to respond and they never reply back.

    I don’t know how you guys do it, my brain is fried researching scattering theory. Instead of the answers I needed more research is needed as scattering theory branches out into so many different subjects. Is anything simple in physics? They trick you by starting with a simple equation and you’re like, “Oh okay that’s simple enough.” Nope! Then they add the variables and you are lost again.

  324. CD Marshall says:

    @Rudi K. Thanks that helps.

  325. boomie789 says:


    damn…did I offend? Why so mean?
    All that arguing with sophist has you sour? Here this ones for you geran. Your answer was really helpful. Sorry I’m not a super genius like you.

  326. geran says:

    “Is anything simple in physics?

    CD, they can’t bake a turkey with ice cubes. It’s that simple.

    Why do you need more? Are you trying to be an “intellectual”?

    Reality is simple.

  327. boomie789 says:

    @ geran

    “Reality is simple.”

  328. CD Marshall says:

    @geran I want to be able to follow the evidence based on the science.

    “Photons don’t stack.” Great but where’s the evidence of that? I don’t have it to show anyone.

    “Photon absorption/reflection is based on frequency.” Great but I have no evidence to support that either.

    “Energy can transfer without a change in temperature.” I have some references to that in thermodynamics.

    Knowing something is wrong and proving it is wrong is two very different things. Reality is you might know the truth that isn’t enough evidence to prove it to someone else. We aren’t just fighting trolls we are also trying to win some over to our side, few of them that might be.

    When a person can’t ask “why” the conversation is over. The science conversation should never be over so yes I want to know why.

    Part A: The energy budget models are in error. Great that has been shown by Joseph and others have as well (to some degree). Can I explain that? Yes I can sufficiently thanks to Joseph and others.

    Can I send a reference to that? Easy.

    Part B: The Greenhouse Gas Theory is in error: Now prove it.
    That is a much more complex subject to prove to someone else. I do know it yes, but can I explain it? Yes. Can I prove what I am explaining? That is a little more difficult.

  329. CD Marshall says:

    Actually not over to “our side” just opening their eyes and letting them make an informed decision. That is all we can do. Give voice to the side that is not being heard. Even now I still hear that greenhouse gases make the world warmer (yes water vapor) but they are convinced its IR radiation doing the warming and not cooling.

    Without ghgs (aside from water vapor) what would the effect actually be? A slight increase in cooling? If 80% of IR is emitted anyway in an open window and water vapor covers mostly all that 20% the increase in cooling would be minimal. Now can I show that? No I really couldn’t at my level of science.

    I don’t want to be a physicist (Joseph can keep that, thank you very much) I just want to be able to follow the science conversation competently.

    Now I had an IQ of 180 sure I’d want to learn enough to pursue a field of science. I also would love to speak 27 different languages and that’s not going to happen either.

  330. GHG theory is connected entirely to Part A. It is derived OUT OF Part A.

    Then the mistake is made in thinking that it applies outside of Part A…but it does not…it, the GHE, only applies in the erroneous models of Part A.

  331. CD Marshall says:

    I see your point, the “made up” difference to compensate the surface temperature is not needed in an accurate model.

    But so many are indoctrinated with IR they don’t understand it can’t warm the surface up more. They absolutely do not even comprehend (the ones who aren’t being deliberate well, you know) that IR going back to the surface can’t warm it up more. You might get them if the A-trolls weren’t interfering saying where does it say energy can transfer w/o a temperature change and all energy transfers on a micro level and energy means an increase in temperature and they are running constant interference.

    To stop that a cohesive explanation with references would maybe help appease the honest one to consider you are actually telling the truth and ignore the troll running interference long enough to hear the rest of what you have to say.

    Most people are taught completely wrong. I was easy becasue I had no previous science background to trip myself up with. Those with, well you experience it every day and yes some cannot be helped.

    On another point, satellites absolutely show IR emissions from Venus. Funny they mention probably no volcanic activity seen on Venus and later say well the pressure would prevent volcanic explosions so lave flow is the only means of pressure release.

  332. CD Marshall says:

    So Naomi Seibt knows some stuff. She has studied physics in school, 1st, 2nd and 3rd place in several contents. 1&3 in physics, 2nd in mathematics. The information is scarce on her in English. Maybe more on German sites I don’t know?

  333. MP says:

    Here is an example of the math skills of MSM pundits who are telling us to completely change our way of life due to climate change science.

  334. Barry says:

    This is why socialists think money grows on trees. They really aren’t smarter than a fifth grader.

  335. boomie789 says:


  336. Did you guys see this?

  337. MP says:

    Wow. IR photon scattering abilities by electrons are huge.

    Quote “After a century of studies, it is only recently that sufficiently high electromagnetic field strengths have been available to experimentally study the nonlinear regime of Thomson scattering in the laboratory. Making use of a high-power laser and a laser-driven electron accelerator, we made the first measurements of high-order multiphoton scattering, in which more than 500 near-infrared laser photons were scattered by a single electron into a single X-ray photon. Both the electron motion and the scattered photons were found to depend nonlinearly on field strength.”

  338. CD Marshall says:

    “Math is hard” no wonder they can’t understand IR. I told a troll once a 15 Micron photon has the transferable energy of 0.08266 eV.

    His reply? Something like well where does it show that can’t warm the surface?

  339. CD Marshall says:

    “I still hear that greenhouse gases make the world warmer (yes water vapor)”
    I didn’t even catch myself using their wording. No ghg doesn’t make the world warmer! Water vapor maintains a reduced temperature longer. However, if you averaged out a desert to a humid area the humid area “average” would probably be warmer. That’s why they love averages, statistical manipulation.

    Without any ghgs besides water vapor a lot more dangerous rays would be striking the Earth, nothing would be protecting us from solar storms besides our natural magnetic field, so during the day the Sun would become lethal in some places, wouldn’t it?

  340. boomie789 says:

    @CD Marshall

    The deserts are already pretty leathal. You could die in less than a day without any water. It has to get pretty hot before you just get cooked.

    The moon is 260F 127C(damn metric system). That will kill you pretty quick. 2mins? For a healthy man?

    I was thinking of linking it lol. I’m definitely following that channel.

  341. CD Marshall says:


    Good point and most places would become desert. Subterranean life it would be, most only coming out an night. You have to build cities underground. What a weird future that would be.

  342. CD Marshall says:

    So this article was forced to be “retracted”.
    “the Sun indicate that the solar activity is heading in the next three decades (2019–2055) to a Modern grand minimum similar to Maunder one. On the other hand, a reconstruction of solar total irradiance suggests that since the Maunder minimum there is an increase in the cycle-averaged total solar irradiance (TSI) by a value of about 1–1.5 Wm−2 closely correlated with an increase of the baseline (average) terrestrial temperature.”

    And I can’t find any TSI after 2015???

  343. CD Marshall says:

    It sure looks like 5 years of TSI is being hidden. What is going on?

  344. CD Marshall says:

    NASA based on CERES shows up to 2016 increasing TSI.

  345. Another typical alarmist claim which confuses absorption with a GHE.

    “ You realise that from MODTRAN a greenhouse effect inevitably follows? You can put in 0ppm CO2 and 400ppm and compare what happens to radiation to space. If you put all GHG to 0, surface radiation will equal TOA radiation, if not there will be a difference. That IS the GHE!”.


    “Either MODTRAN is wrong, or there is no GHE.

    MODTRAN is a Schwarzschild equation put into computer code for ease of use. It’s the very definition of the “GHE” is in terms of basic physics (ie absorption in an optically thick the atmosphere).”

    I think these people are optically thick.

  346. They have no clue. They don’t know what they’re interpreting.

  347. boomie789 says:

  348. MP says:

    New paper from Dr. Robert Holmes

  349. boomie789 says:

    Naive fool-
    “Answer this: [How does MLI work]( It violates your “cold added to hot” principle. How does it do that?

    > The principle behind MLI is radiation balance. To see why it works, start with a concrete example – imagine a square meter of a surface in outer space, held at a fixed temperature of 300 K, with an emissivity of 1, facing away from the sun or other heat sources. From the Stefan–Boltzmann law, this surface will radiate 460 W. Now imagine placing a thin (but opaque) layer 1 cm away from the plate, also with an emissivity of 1. This new layer will cool until it is radiating 230 W from each side, at which point everything is in balance. The new layer receives 460 W from the original plate. **230 W is radiated back to the original plate**, and 230 W to space. The original surface still radiates 460 W, **but gets 230 W back from the new layers, for a net loss of 230 W**. So overall, the radiation losses from the surface have been reduced by half by adding the additional layer.”

    This whole time they had the material to make perpetual motion machines inside satilites?

    Lol, apparently this is supposed to prove that cold adds to hot.

    I haven’t even responded.

    The original plate would have to add the 230w and emit 690, instead of still just emitting 460w, like it does in reality.

  350. boomie789 says:


    Molyneux actually explained why that happened.

  351. MLI *slows down* cooling and heating of interior objects. That’s why it is used on satellites…

    It doesn’t reverse heat flow. They’re misrepresenting how it works and what it does…as they always do. Like in my new post just put up…they have created an entire theory which is consistent to itself, as long you stay on its own terms. But this requires misinterpretation and misrepresentation of the facts, etc.

  352. “Oh but slowed cooling means higher average over time!!!!!!!”

    That’s NOT the greenhouse effect!!!!!!!!!!!!

  353. Even more to the point, so called “slowed cooling” is so fast that it amounts to mere micro-fractions of a second that mean virtually nothing. This is the verbal equivalent of misrepresenting the y-axis on temperature graphs to make a tiny increment look like a mountainous amount.

    Any “slowed cooling” on the day side of the planet would more than be made up by the overall faster cooling on the night side.

  354. mkaastrup says:

    Dear mr. Postma.

    Thank you for your many insightful blog posts here, they have been very valuable to me.
    I am aware that CO2 and H2O etc. is a better emitter than N2 and O2. Given that the atmosphere can only “dump” heat into space by emitting heat radiation (no other modes of heat transfer being available) it follows that the higher the emissivity of the atmosphere, the colder it will be while emitting the same amount of w/m2.
    Could you indicate HOW to calculate the emissivity of, say 1 m3 of atmosphere at 1 bar both with 415 ppm CO2 and 830 ppm CO2? I am trying to quantify – loosely – the cooling of the atmosphere resulting from a higher level of CO2. One would suppose this is counteracted by a better ability of the atmosphere to absorb heat radiation, but it appears that 100% of all heat radiation is already absorbed by CO2 at present CO2 concentrations (saturation is reached), this could be calculated from the Lambert-Beer Law. The end result of this is that more CO2 in the atmosphere will have a slight cooling effect on the atmosphere. Isn’t that just interesting?

  355. Yes that is interesting. The real physics of emissivity dictates that increasing emissivity reduces temperature. I don’t know how to calculate what you ask for…but it is interesting that this isn’t out there at all, because if it was ever discussed openly the very mechanics of it would immediately make apparent the fundamental flaw of radiative GHE theory.

  356. Rudi K. says:

    Consider the following combined adiabatic/thermodynamic and radiative analysis.
    1. IR active gases absorb surface heat and convey the heat upwards by convection of air parcels. In the process the air parcels cool. The rate of cooling with altitude manifests in the adiabatic lapse rate studied by meteorologists.
    2. When the air parcels reach a sufficient altitude to be able to radiate heat to space (according to absorptance under the Lamber-Beer Law), they do so and cool further.
    3. The radiatively cooled air parcels descend back to the surface to close the thermodynamic cycle. (Global air conditioning system)
    4. The main IR active gases are H20 and CO2. These facilitate both the absorption of surface heat by the lower atmosphere and its subsequent radiation to space in the upper atmosphere.
    So what difference might changing the proportions of H20 and CO2 make?
    H20: Nearly all water vapour condenses out in the troposphere, so H20 radiates at mid troposphere temperatures, around 255K. Changing the amount of H20 content at the surface makes little difference to the H20 in the upper troposphere. Observations in [1] [2] and [3] have shown that the levels of H20 in the upper troposphere have not increased in response to surface temperatures in recent decades (contrary to the standard climate models). In effect, cooling and convection appear to dry out the upper troposphere. So not much difference.
    CO2: The proportion of CO2 in air is roughly constant throughout the troposphere and stratosphere. Graphs in [3] show that CO2 absorbs (at its characteristic 15 micron wavelength) near to the ground and radiates to space from levels in the upper troposphere through the tropopause and upwards into the stratosphere. The temperatures in the tropopause are constant around 220K and indeed increase upwards into the stratosphere, so increasing (even doubling) CO2 levels (and thereby increasing the altitude at which 15 micron radiation escapes to space) makes little difference to the temperature of the outgoing radiation.
    Bill Happer reaches a similar conclusion in his Heartland Institute talk:
    Implication – the temperatures at which the atmosphere radiates to space are relatively insensitive to its CO2 and surface water vapour content. Thus, we have a fairly constant greenhouse effect within wide limits of IR active gas content.
    [1] G. Paltridge, A. Arking, and M. Pook. Trends in middle-and upper-level tropospheric humidity from ncep reanalysis data. Theoretical and Applied Climatology, 98(3-4):351–359, 2009.
    [2] W. C. Gilbert. The thermodynamic relationship between surface temperature and water vapor concen- tration in the troposphere. Energy & environment, 21(4):263–275, 2010.
    [3] F. M. Miskolczi. The greenhouse effect and the infrared radiative structure of the earth’s atmosphere. Development in Earth Science, 2, 2014.

  357. Jopo says:

    Sometimes the facts just get in the way

  358. CD Marshall says:

    I might be wrong but I’ve seen the 1st Law of Thermodynamics shown as dU = H – W not plus work.

  359. CD Marshall says:

    So in chemistry it is written as ΔU=Q+W so that makes perfect sense somewhere.

  360. boomie789 says:

    Black retired police chief shot dead by looters.

    He was defending the business, owned by a long time friend of his.

    A common thread I’ve heard about where the worst riots are is the attorney general/general procecuter. Lots of “first black woman prosecutors”.

    Hearing rumours about they are antifa organizers.

    Basically Antifa has political positions in Liberal city districts.

    They have pictures going around of piles of bricks conspicuously placed, convenient for rioters. I’ll find that picture once I’m on my PC.

  361. Pingback: Does Trapping Running Make Running Run Faster? – EIKE – Europäisches Institut für Klima & Energie

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